The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Enda]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

Anyway as I've said to Enda before unless there is a high level of free trade between UK and EU post Brexit, I think they'll follow us out of the EU before too long as a matter of economic necessity.  

As you're the man that just disenfranchised the 300,000 people who live in the Republic's share of Ulster, I'll take your predictions on Irish matters with a grain of salt  :-) 

[Enda]

Also the real issue with an open border isn't the issue of the UK and Ireland sharing passport details. It's that an open border just isn't feasible (at least with current tech) without a customs union.  At which point you've given us control of your border security, and have de facto surrendered your trade sovereignty. Not to mention the delicious reality of Schengen-lite on the island of Ireland, but not between Belfast and London.

I could well see a scenario emerging (not the same thing as saying I'm sure it will happen) that there's a hard border at the North to just avoid the headache for Londoners who don't care all that much. That's when I'd fear a return of bombs in pubs and all the rest.

Obviously I'd much prefer you lot just stay in the single market. 

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

the UK making a sovereign decision of its own to leave the EU.

Not really anything to do with your post, so sorry for the quote. I just find describing the unholy crapshoot of a mess that is brexit like that quite humorous. 

[Awol]

27 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Not really anything to do with your post, so sorry for the quote. I just find describing the unholy crapshoot of a mess that is brexit like that quite humorous. 

No worries, I'm simultaneously amused and bemused by the ways in which Brexit is described by people with literally no idea how it will turn out. 

[Jon]

4 minutes ago, Awol said:

No worries, I'm simultaneously amused and bemused by the ways in which Brexit is described by people with literally no idea how it will turn out. 

May being the prime example 

[darrenm]

And David Davis

[mjmooney]

2 hours ago, Awol said:

No I meant Ulster, a perfectly acceptable and interchangeable term with Northern Ireland - and quicker to type. 

It's like some people describing Londonderry as 'Derry. Personal choice. 

No it isn't. Ulster is a province of nine counties, three of which are in the Republic. 

[Awol]

Just now, Jon said:

May being the prime example 

"Brexit means Brexit" is the most asinine political slogan ever.  

Describing Brexit as an unmitigated disaster before we've even given notification to leave is equally ridiculous, imo.

[Awol]

13 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Ulster is a province of nine counties, three of which are in the Republic. 

I know, having lived there. You might want to tell the former Royal Ulster Constabulary, or the Royal Ulster Rifles, or any number of other organizations that they aren't allowed to refer to the north as Ulster. 

[darrenm]

7 minutes ago, Awol said:

"Brexit means Brexit" is the most asinine political slogan ever.  

Describing Brexit as an unmitigated disaster before we've even given notification to leave is equally ridiculous, imo.

For clarity, I was referring to the leave/exit campaigns and increased division in the country since Cameron first announced the referendum when I called it an unholy crapshoot of a mess. I couldn't ever, with a straight face, describe it as the UK making a sovereign decision.

It's certainly not an unmitigated disaster. Yet. It all remains to be seen, but it does seem like we're currently on the edge of a cliff.

That's my extremely unqualified opinion though.

[mjmooney]

11 minutes ago, Awol said:

I know, having lived there. You might want to tell the former Royal Ulster Constabulary, or the Royal Ulster Rifles, or any number of other organizations that they aren't allowed to refer to the north as Ulster. 

They may well refer to it that way. Doesn't mean it's right. 

[Awol]

2 minutes ago, darrenm said:

For clarity, I was referring to the leave/exit campaigns and increased division in the country since Cameron first announced the referendum when I called it an unholy crapshoot of a mess. I couldn't ever, with a straight face, describe it as the UK making a sovereign decision.

It's certainly not an unmitigated disaster. Yet. It all remains to be seen, but it does seem like we're currently on the edge of a cliff.

That's my extremely unqualified opinion though.

I wasn't referring to your post particularly, or grouping other like minded posters together for the purpose of labeling them.

It was just an observation on the cringeworthy Remain narrative so many commentators are clinging to as a mental life raft for their dignity/career/reputation*

 

*delete as appropriate. 

[Awol]

2 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

They may well refer to it that way. Doesn't mean it's right. 

Fair enough, you're right and they, as a nation, are wrong. I think the Ulster Unionist Party are in need of your advice on possible name changes. 

[Enda]

20 hours ago, Awol said:

Fair enough, you're right and they, as a nation, are wrong. I think the Ulster Unionist Party are in need of your advice on possible name changes. 

The UUP were founded before Northern Ireland existed. It was the likes of Carson and Craig and the UUP who brought the gun into twentieth century Irish politics when, in 1913, they promised "any means" to prevent an Act of Parliament granting some devolved powers to Dublin. So loyal to the Queen they'd go to war against her Parliament were the UUP. And people think the IRA were the only terrorists up there. If only; these "any means" would-be terrorists just happened to control a majority in the highly gerrymandered state called Northern Ireland, and thus claimed democratic legitimacy.

The name change should have happened in 1922, when the UUP realised they didn't even have a majority in Ulster, nevermind Ireland, and so their little loyalist enclave would have to be restricted to a tighter area around Belfast. Thus the gerrymandering, where Northern Ireland isn't Ulster, and where today the awkward peace that was so difficult to secure would be threatened by a hard border.

[blandy]

21 hours ago, Awol said:

It was just an observation on the cringeworthy Remain narrative so many commentators are clinging to as a mental life raft for their dignity/career/reputation*

 

*delete as appropriate. 

I agree. The same is true of the Leave people, particularly including various anti -EU tory MPs. I saw an article in the torygraph today which was  clearly a "fed" story (though not really anything of actual note) in which a couple off senior tories were quoted. It was all about how "extra" investment had been secured in the past year. Leaving aside "extra" than what. i.e. it's just investment (which is good). Clearly the investors haven't said "d'you know what, Brexit led us to decide to dob some extra money into..XYZ". But the interesting point was the series of tory MPs who had all happily provided quotes to the torygraph. They were all (strangely) the anti EU lot. and they mainly spoke about, well, see below.

Quote

Based on current projections it is expected that capital investment commitments supported by the Government will now meet or exceed the foreign direct investment pledged between 2015 and 2016.

Senior Leave campaigners including Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith, both former Cabinet ministers, on Thursday night hailed the figures and hit out at the “prophets of doom” who predicted economic disaster after Brexit.

“This latest announcement is the turning point. You are now either in the camp that fundamentally believes that Britain can do anything, anytime and anywhere, or you are in the a doom and gloom camp that doesn't believe in Britain. 

"These are the little England Remainers who cannot believe for one moment that Great Britain is not little England, they actually think that this great island of ours cannot do anything without going on bended knee to Brussels."

Mr Gove, who served as justice secretary, said: “This is fantastic news that the government has secured these levels of investment.

"This is a real vote of confidence in Britain after our vote to leave the European Union. The prophets of doom have once again been found wanting

"All the signs are that Britain can make a great success of life outside the European Union and these investors certainly believe in a great future for Britain."

Gerald Howarth, a eurosceptic MP, said: "Its fantastic news and a vote of in the United Kingdom's reliance, its future and a complete snub to those who betrayed our country by selling us short under 'Project Fear.'"

Andrew Rosindell, the MP for Romford, added: "2017 will not be the miserable year the Remoaners had hoped for as investment in Britain grows stronger and our prospects for trade agreements globally become a reality.

Steve Baker MP, said: "Investors can see the UK will be a global leader in opportunity, enterprise and human flourishing. The sooner downbeat commentators accept current facts and future possibilities, the happier and more prosperous we will all be."

Now even if the story is really about Brexit somehow encouraging new investment (and it might, though how we'd know beats me) the story is basically tories slagging off anyone who doesn't share their view. It's mad. Theresa May, their leader, voted remain, yet they imply their leader (and anyone else who voted remain, wants a miserable year, betrayed the country, are little Englanders, don't believe in Britain and are prophets of doom. They're off their **** heads.

[Awol]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

They're off their **** heads.

Certainly comes across that way.

FWIW I think it's a combination of factors stemming from insecurity and a subsequent siege mentality.

Why? My take is that many of those Tory MP's who support leaving the EU have done so since Maastricht, often at the expense of their own political advancement. They are simultaneously conviction politicians and a minority in their own Parliamentary Party (where deeply held principles are viewed with suspicion), including the leadership. 

Having fought and beaten a government run propaganda campaign that exceeded the WMD conspiracy in scope and scale, but subsequently failed to secure the leadership of their own party, they are expecting an Establishment fudge.

As we know sections of that Establishment would like nothing more than to overturn or otherwise subvert the result (the Chancellor being a prime example), they know this too and it scares the crap out of them. It's not like referenda haven't been routinely ignored in the past across the EU member states. 

I think they are wrong and we will now leave completely rather than finding a way to remain that is dressed up as Brexit, but having overcome such incredible odds to win the thing that fear lives on. 

[HanoiVillan]

Or they're just complete clearings in the woods. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

As we know sections of that Establishment would like nothing more than to overturn or otherwise subvert the result (the Chancellor being a prime example), they know this too and it scares the crap out of them. It's not like referenda haven't been routinely ignored in the past across the EU member states. 

I think they are wrong and we will now leave completely rather than finding a way to remain that is dressed up as Brexit,

I agree pretty much with your post, but the bit quoted, not so much. Basically while I agree that large parts of the establishment think leaving is foolish, almost none of them are intending or minded to block or overturn leaving. A few Lib Dems, the SNP and Ken Clark is about the size of the committed remain people. Everyone else is resigned, or pleased to be leaving and will support that act, even if they personally think it's a bad move.

These long term knob-heads are so obsessed with this one issue (IMO) that they are blind to the world around them and to be honest their characters are unpleasant at best, and boy does it show -

or TL:DR - what HV said

[StefanAVFC]

41 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Ta. Don't worry, I wasn't offended. It's just that there are some common misconceptions about migration that people have. The awkward reality for the government is that they have already done all of the 'easy wins'. We now issue absolutely no visas for unskilled migrants. All non-EU migration is now down to either, a] families, or b] skilled migrants that companies want and feel prepared to go through the rigmarole of visa application for, or c] refugees.

Turning 'hundreds of thousands' into 'tens of thousands' has the beauty of sounding simple, but the reality is this country will never again see the levels of migration that we had in the 1990s without a complete economic collapse or some sort of violent conflict. A brave politician would be prepared to say this, but they would have to be brave. 

For me it's even more cynical than that. May has decided to go after non-EU students now, to continue going after the easy win. For me, that's the stupidest attack. They come here, pay huge fees and contribute billions to the economy. Some will stay after their courses (but they will be educated/skilled) but most leave after 3 years.

I digress, the numbers aren't going down at all. Never mind reducing hundreds of thousands to tens of thousands like pledged. Which I why I wanted to clarify so you didn't think I was implying it's a lawless free-for-all. I'm aware it isn't.

Also, as I said in my OP, even with 'controlled EU immigration', I doubt the numbers will go down. We need the EU immigrants to prop up certain industries until we scale back welfare and encourage certain British people to get back into the workforce.

 

This is a few years old now but I think it's a somewhat accurate representation of the attitudes that some hold in this country. You can pretty much safely assume all of these idiots who feel they're above the jobs described voted leave as well.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

You can pretty much safely assume all of these idiots who feel they're above the jobs described voted leave as well.

"coming over here, picking our fruit"