The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[snowychap]

12 minutes ago, Awol said:

Brexit has dislocated that system

It hasn't dislocated that system. It's provided the space for a few people to destroy as much of what was part of that system as they possibly could, in as short a time as possible, under the cover of working towards an improved future and on the back of utterly gross exaggerations of their intent and any deficiencies in that system.

More worryingly, it was such a successful ploy that it's being continued even now and, because it's sometimes couched in a few reasonable assertions and suggestions, people still fall for it.

[Awol]

10 minutes ago, snowychap said:

That is such a biased, pernicious take on what has happened and I fear it will persist for far, far too long.

It's an opinion, that's all. Chill.

I know it's an attempt to be comical but given the utterly disgraceful direction of travel of the UK government, a line like above really reinforces

just quite how galling the championing of Brexit has become.

Let's be fair, pro-Brexit views have generally elicited almost pathological hatred on here, to the point that debate on it became meaningless many years ago. I've only bothered posting about it because the process element is actually over, I didn't do so in expectation of enlightening conversation. 

I'm interested to hear what the utterly disgraceful direction of travel is, though?   

[blandy]

25 minutes ago, Awol said:

the status quo consensus that was driving us into the ground 

That's an interesting take. I mean I've heard lots of stuff from the Leave supporters who talked about "project fear" and "talking down the benefits of Brexit" and all kinds. Run of the mill I suppose.

It's far rarer to read what you wrote - that as members of the EU were were being driven into the ground. I mean how exactly? It's a bit of a mystery why you'd say that - I can see people disliking beaurocrats, or complaining about slow processes or freedom of movement or CFP and CAP....stuff you can see where they're coming from, even if you hold a different view. But "driven into the ground"? What with all our better enviro protections, safer cars and goods, higher food standards, ease of trade and travel in a huge block, going from "the sick man of Europe" before joining to one of the most prosperous nations.

It seems like complete hyperbole, which is not your usual style. 

[snowychap]

24 minutes ago, Awol said:

It's an opinion, that's all. Chill.

Except it's not 'just an opinion', Jon. It's a narrative that has been pushed, is still being pushed and will continue to be pushed that will create just as much, if not more, division than the amount that you claim has been caused by 'the establishment fighting so hard to overturn a vote to leave.'

24 minutes ago, Awol said:

Let's be fair, pro-Brexit views have generally elicited almost pathological hatred on here

This isn't about VT - this is a wider consideration.

24 minutes ago, Awol said:

I didn't do so in expectation of enlightening conversation

Nor with the intent of enllightening the conversation.

24 minutes ago, Awol said:

I'm interested to hear what the utterly disgraceful direction of travel is, though?

See any number of posts critical of the actions of the government, its advisors, &c. with regard to Parliament, accountability, other nations in the UK, JR, the judiciary, the legal profession, the public, the public purse, cronyism on steroids, and on and on.

Very little of the above would have passed you by (i.e. it isn't purely my take - it is shared by a lot of people of many different political bents) given your wide sphere of reading on current affairs, I'm sure.

Edited January 2, 2021 by snowychap

[Awol]

Just now, blandy said:

That's an interesting take. I mean I've heard lots of stuff from the Leave supporters who talked about "project fear" and "talking down the benefits of Brexit" and all kinds. Run of the mill I suppose.

It's far rarer to read what you wrote - that as members of the EU were were being driven into the ground. I mean how exactly? It's a bit of a mystery why you'd say that - I can see people disliking beaurocrats, or complaining about slow processes or freedom of movement or CFP and CAP....stuff you can see where they're coming from, even if you hold a different view. But "driven into the ground"? What with all our better enviro protections, safer cars and goods, higher food standards, ease of trade and travel in a huge block, going from "the sick man of Europe" before joining to one of the most prosperous nations.

It seems like complete hyperbole, which is not your usual style. 

No I'm coming from a different direction, not that the EU was driving UK into the ground, our own establishment was. The championing of financial services and the south-east (infrastructure spending vs the rest of UK, for example) at the expense of manufacturing, the hollowing out and abandonment of provincial areas that no-one in power gave a monkey's about - until the vote for Brexit. That was the root of the problem, over centralisation and a glib, sneering disregard for the rest of the country.  The EU (as it had become) was a symptom of the problem, providing a stage for politicians to posture on, behind which global corporations lobbied to set rules behind closed doors that privileged those with the economic power to buy influence, or to arrange their tax affairs such to screw over the countries in which they made billions.   

The CAP does artificially inflate food prices and the CFP is an abomination. Restoring fishing as an industry (not just the blokes in boats) will help drive wealth creation in what have become some of the poorest parts of the country. It's generally mocked by people who don't look at the problem holistically, because they only see a national bottom line that doesn't reflect ground-truth. Free-ports will hopefully drive similar development in formerly prosperous industrial, but now deprived, areas. That will take state aid, used in ways we simply couldn't do within the EU rule book. Will the Tories do that? Maybe not, I don't know. Are they talking about doing it? Yes. If they don't some bright spark will put it in a manifesto and try to get elected by promising to do it.   

[Awol]

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Except it's not 'just an opinion', Jon.

It is my opinion, not anyone else's narrative. If you read others saying similar things elsewhere it's possible they share that same interpretation of events. Many do. The rest I'll leave, except to say conversations with people in the physical world tend to be much more balanced about Brexit (in terms of for or against and tone) than any discussion on here. That's cool, Brexit supporting VT'ers know what's coming if they dip their toe in this thread!

[Xann]

The Brexit dreams of Spitfires or Singapore won't deliver a victory condition for the majority of UK citizens.

How can anyone think what child starver Mogg wants is going to be good for everyone? Stacks more easy lolly for finance though.

The only things that trickle down are piss and contempt.

[StefanAVFC]

29 minutes ago, Awol said:

 The rest I'll leave, except to say conversations with people in the physical world tend to be much more balanced about Brexit (in terms of for or against and tone) than any discussion on here. 

My experience is the exact opposite. Either admitting they were wrong or something about immigration. 

Have to admit, not many headbangers in my bubble. 

[snowychap]

47 minutes ago, Awol said:

Free-ports

Ah, that old chestnut.

[snowychap]

50 minutes ago, Awol said:

It is my opinion, not anyone else's narrative.

It is absolutely a narrative pervading every part of the pro-Brexit camp(s).

50 minutes ago, Awol said:

If you read others saying similar things elsewhere it's possible they share that same interpretation of events.

The claim that this is a series of independently arrived at observations and interpretations that just happen to coincide is a more patently transparent attempted comic aside than 'Viva la revolution'.

50 minutes ago, Awol said:

The rest I'll leave, except to say conversations with people in the physical world tend to be much more balanced about Brexit (in terms of for or against and tone) than any discussion on here.

I seriously hope that you're including your own posts on the subject over the last five or so years in that.

Edited January 2, 2021 by snowychap

[OutByEaster?]

56 minutes ago, Awol said:

That was the root of the problem, over centralisation and a glib, sneering disregard for the rest of the country.  The EU (as it had become) was a symptom of the problem, providing a stage for politicians to posture on, behind which global corporations lobbied to set rules behind closed doors that privileged those with the economic power to buy influence, or to arrange their tax affairs such to screw over the countries in which they made billions.   

One of the reasons I wanted us to remain in the EU was that I saw it as the nearest we had to a solution to that problem rather than a symptom. Not deliberately to be fair, but accidentally in the complexity of its bureaucracy.

The problem as you describe it sounds a lot like the current government and the influence of their corporate overlords and cronies, a problem which is of course now amplified by the lack of any outside checks and balances and the influence of the EU.

I think the country knows at some level that we're being robbed, cheated and taken advantage of, but has fallen for a sleight of hand that persuaded us it was the rabbit not the magician that was responsible.

 

[Awol]

7 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

One of the reasons I wanted us to remain in the EU was that I saw it as the nearest we had to a solution to that problem rather than a symptom. Not deliberately to be fair, but accidentally in the complexity of its bureaucracy.

The problem as you describe it sounds a lot like the current government and the influence of their corporate overlords and cronies, a problem which is of course now amplified by the lack of any outside checks and balances and the influence of the EU...

Fair enough. It's perfectly possible (and reasonable) for two people to observe the same basic problem, diagnose it differently and thus reach different conclusions about the correct treatment. 

The good news is that even coming from different points of view, both sides recognise that problem. That's a starting point for life beyond Brexit.  

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

No I'm coming from a different direction, not that the EU was driving UK into the ground, our own establishment was. The championing of financial services and the south-east (infrastructure spending vs the rest of UK, for example) at the expense of manufacturing, the hollowing out and abandonment of provincial areas that no-one in power gave a monkey's about - until the vote for Brexit. That was the root of the problem, over centralisation and a glib, sneering disregard for the rest of the country.  The EU (as it had become) was a symptom of the problem, providing a stage for politicians to posture on, behind which global corporations lobbied to set rules behind closed doors that privileged those with the economic power to buy influence, or to arrange their tax affairs such to screw over the countries in which they made billions.   

The CAP does artificially inflate food prices and the CFP is an abomination. .. 

Right, gotcha. Spot on about CAP and CFP.

The one odd thing is that you say (rightly) that the UK establishment is/was driving the UK into the ground or at least in terms of favouring the South East and finance over manufacturing and fishing and stuff you’re right. But it was the establishment that drove Brexit, it is the establishment in charge now. They’re not going to suddenly change. They drink the blood they drink. Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, The Daily Telegraph, Murdoch, Dacre, Spoons, JCB, Dyson. Looking after northerners and the little people? - It’s not what they do, not in their programming, or their DNA.

Never mind the grifters like Farage, and the dodgy ones like Banks, who will just move on to the next opportunity for opportunism. The people who led Brexit are all words removed. Not because they led it, they were words removed long before their scheme.

The EU is very far from perfect,  but compared to those twunts, it cares more for doing good, despite its flaws.

[chrisp65]

Some genuine people resented deprived areas only seeing ‘investment’ via EU funded arts projects. It was to the tune of over £2 Million a year.

People without jobs living in mouldy flats quite rightly thought this wasn’t the best use of money.

Brexit promised them they would stop spending this money on the arts.

They got what they voted for.

That so many of them thought they were voting to have the money spent on jobs and trains and mould remediation works is just unfortunate projection on their part.

As it happens, thanks to covid, the liars and thieves of Brexit can now say that unfortunately, they’ve had to spend the money on PPE. Though to be more precise, it’s been handed to the friends of the liars and the thieves.

It was a con from the start, but bloody hell they’ve had some luck with covid. Shagger Johnson and his handlers can’t believe their luck. 

[Xann]

2 hours ago, snowychap said:

Ah, that old chestnut.

Further tax evasion and second class citizens to exploit.

[StefanAVFC]

5 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It was a con from the start, 

There was never popular opinion for Brexit before the question was asked. Usually these questions get asked when the population demands it.

A minority of smart people, who wanted out for either idealogical reasons or financial reasons, managed to convince the easily led to vote against their best interests, or by blatantly lying about what would happen.

it is still massively depressing to me that they won.

[Awol]

14 hours ago, blandy said:

The one odd thing is that you say (rightly) that the UK establishment is/was driving the UK into the ground or at least in terms of favouring the South East and finance over manufacturing and fishing and stuff you’re right. But it was the establishment that drove Brexit, it is the establishment in charge now. They’re not going to suddenly change. 

.....

The EU is very far from perfect,  but compared to those twunts, it cares more for doing good, despite its flaws.

Yes elements of the Tory party pushed for a referendum that's true, but (aside from a few dozen true believers) because they saw their own political power and position threatened by UKIP. That was only the case because there was a ground swell of opinion in the country at large for leaving the EU which wasn't represented in (what passes for) mainstream political thought, and UKIP harnessed it to win the European elections. If there was no public constituency for leaving then UKIP couldn't have existed. Once the Brexit vote happened Farage and Co disappeared because voters had achieved their objective, until it looked like May was going to crumble on delivering Brexit, then from a standing start those voters took the six week-old Brexit party to another victory in the European elections. That was completely without political precedent and toppled May, then Johnson came in and got a huge majority on a promise to deliver the result. 

The point here is that elite politicians were riding a wave of political sentiment that existed independently of them in the country at large. Far from being led by the nose, voters instrumentalised certain political factions for their own ends. Once those ends were achieved the politicians involved were relegated to talk radio. 

Will the Tories now go against their own DNA by doing things that are considered unconservative within the modern Tory party? If they've got any sense then yes, they will, because they want to retain power and have been given a demonstration of the public's ability to manipulate political figures and parties for their own ends. Cummings, himself not a Conservative, understands this perfectly. He's not front office anymore but is still there in the background and Johnson trusts his instincts.  

The EU as a body has the same corporate-leaning thirst for power as the establishment elements buggering things up for decades in the UK. The EU isn't a check on those bad instincts, it's a mirror of them, but even further removed from direct democratic control. The CAI deal pushed through a few days ago for short-term Franco-German economic interests really highlights the priorities and direction of travel of the institutions, even to those who managed to overlook what was done to Greece to save French and German banks.  

It is a paradox to me that those who often (and rightly) shout loudest about the need for political change push back hardest against it when the opportunity arises.    

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

Yes elements of the Tory party pushed for a referendum that's true, but (aside from a few dozen true believers) because they saw their own political power and position threatened by UKIP. That was only the case because there was a ground swell of opinion in the country at large for leaving the EU which wasn't represented in (what passes for) mainstream political thought, and UKIP harnessed it to win the European elections. If there was no public constituency for leaving then UKIP couldn't have existed. Once the Brexit vote happened Farage and Co disappeared because voters had achieved their objective, until it looked like May was going to crumble on delivering Brexit, then from a standing start those voters took the six week-old Brexit party to another victory in the European elections. That was completely without political precedent and toppled May, then Johnson came in and got a huge majority on a promise to deliver the result. 

The point here is that elite politicians were riding a wave of political sentiment that existed independently of them in the country at large. Far from being led by the nose, voters instrumentalised certain political factions for their own ends. Once those ends were achieved the politicians involved were relegated to talk radio. 

Will the Tories now go against their own DNA by doing things that are considered unconservative within the modern Tory party? If they've got any sense then yes, they will, because they want to retain power and have been given a demonstration of the public's ability to manipulate political figures and parties for their own ends. Cummings, himself not a Conservative, understands this perfectly. He's not front office anymore but is still there in the background and Johnson trusts his instincts.  

The EU as a body has the same corporate-leaning thirst for power as the establishment elements buggering things up for decades in the UK. The EU isn't a check on those bad instincts, it's a mirror of them, but even further removed from direct democratic control. The CAI deal pushed through a few days ago for short-term Franco-German economic interests really highlights the priorities and direction of travel of the institutions, even to those who managed to overlook what was done to Greece to save French and German banks.  

It is a paradox to me that those who often (and rightly) shout loudest about the need for political change push back hardest against it when the opportunity arises.    

That's one reading of the history. There are others.

UKIP existed for a long while as a sort of very fringe Robert Kilroy Silk tiny enclave of his elderly TV viewers who read the Express and Mail and remembered the War and didn't like the idea of foreigners being involved in the UK.

It's true there's always been sentiment against the EU (as there is against just about anything you can think of). But UKIP did exist before there was a groundswell of opinion for leaving.

What happened is that a number of figures then took on the mantle and created the momentum, largely by lying and this grew and grew as a consequence of their actions - people nurturing grudges, both real and imagined. Opportunists seeing ways to make themselves money, or to foster hatred. What they had in their favour as you posted earlier is that plenty of people in this country had genuine grievances (created, as you say by the London establishment, not by the EU) around lack of investment up north, neglect of communities and industries, as well as by globalisation, by the internet and cyber making the old" become "the obsolete" - whether that be people or shops or businesses. The grievance was given an artificial "perpetrator" by the likes of Farage and Johnson - they're salesmen, snake oil salesmen, but pretty good at it -  "see your struggles and woes - the EU and foreigners caused it. See nice things, you can have them if we leave the EU". And this was allowed to be spread across the airwaves and press with relish. And so UKIP grew in size, the tories got scared and decided to shift onto the now fertile ground that UKIP had ploughed - the political sentiment that you mention was created out of little and nurtured by people with any eye out for what they could get out of it - it wasn't independent of politicians, it was whipped up and manipulated by them. And those politicians who were of a different view on the EU - they did little to counter it or defend it, for most of the time. They were playing by different rules, playing a different game altogether. And then you had the ERG throbbers, who found themselves in a position where they had disproportionate influence because of parliamentary maths, and the tories trimmed further right again. All the while Labour couldn't decide who they were, or what they were for. The SNP lapped it up - great for their cause.

I agree about the thirst for power of the EU and the analysis that France and Germany try and shape things to their interests (as did Britain, when we were a member, and with some success).

The need for political change is absolute, I agree. My take though is that (as you've said) the problem isn't the EU, it's the UK establishment - our politics is broken and unfit for purpose. FPTP is dreadful, but it suits the tories and sort of suits Labour, so it'll not be got rid of anytime soon. The tories are now changing things so there is less parliamentary scrutiny and sovereignty, instead giving control directly to individual ministers.

The likes of Cummins  - how did he ever get to be so influential - a pseudo intellectual (revisionist)  blogger who managed to whisper in the ear of first Gove, then Farage, then Johnson telling them about his plans and how to make their dreams come true. The man's a numpty. One of those who knows how to demolish a building, but not how to build one or even how to clear away the rubble - "I'll just watch the explosion then sidle off quietly".

The tories are not about to fix any of the problems we've talked about. As we've both said, it's not in their DNA. There is an element of they'll adopt whatever policies, claim or make up new principles to cling to power and keep the gravy (Mmmm, gravy..) train rolling, but when it comes down to it, we're the Frog, they're the Scorpion.

[StefanAVFC]

The ground swell of opinion against the EU pre referendum simply isnt true. The media and some politicians weaponized the immigration question for their own ends, but that's all.

Then during the referendum, again, the immigration question was weaponized into the most important issue (alongside lies about sovereignty and extra funding to the NHS) when EU immigration is not only beneficial but non-EU could always be controlled but successive governments chose not to. 

[StefanAVFC]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

That's one reading of the history. There are others.

UKIP existed for a long while as a sort of very fringe Robert Kilroy Silk tiny enclave of his elderly TV viewers who read the Express and Mail and remembered the War and didn't like the idea of foreigners being involved in the UK.

It's true there's always been sentiment against the EU (as there is against just about anything you can think of). But UKIP did exist before there was a groundswell of opinion for leaving.

What happened is that a number of figures then took on the mantle and created the momentum, largely by lying and this grew and grew as a consequence of their actions - people nurturing grudges, both real and imagined. Opportunists seeing ways to make themselves money, or to foster hatred. What they had in their favour as you posted earlier is that plenty of people in this country had genuine grievances (created, as you say by the London establishment, not by the EU) around lack of investment up north, neglect of communities and industries, as well as by globalisation, by the internet and cyber making the old" become "the obsolete" - whether that be people or shops or businesses. The grievance was given an artificial "perpetrator" by the likes of Farage and Johnson - they're salesmen, snake oil salesmen, but pretty good at it -  "see your struggles and woes - the EU and foreigners caused it. See nice things, you can have them if we leave the EU". And this was allowed to be spread across the airwaves and press with relish. And so UKIP grew in size, the tories got scared and decided to shift onto the now fertile ground that UKIP had ploughed - the political sentiment that you mention was created out of little and nurtured by people with any eye out for what they could get out of it - it wasn't independent of politicians, it was whipped up and manipulated by them. And those politicians who were of a different view on the EU - they did little to counter it or defend it, for most of the time. They were playing by different rules, playing a different game altogether. And then you had the ERG throbbers, who found themselves in a position where they had disproportionate influence because of parliamentary maths, and the tories trimmed further right again. All the while Labour couldn't decide who they were, or what they were for. The SNP lapped it up - great for their cause.

I agree about the thirst for power of the EU and the analysis that France and Germany try and shape things to their interests (as did Britain, when we were a member, and with some success).

The need for political change is absolute, I agree. My take though is that (as you've said) the problem isn't the EU, it's the UK establishment - our politics is broken and unfit for purpose. FPTP is dreadful, but it suits the tories and sort of suits Labour, so it'll not be got rid of anytime soon. The tories are now changing things so there is less parliamentary scrutiny and sovereignty, instead giving control directly to individual ministers.

The likes of Cummins  - how did he ever get to be so influential - a pseudo intellectual (revisionist)  blogger who managed to whisper in the ear of first Gove, then Farage, then Johnson telling them about his plans and how to make their dreams come true. The man's a numpty. One of those who knows how to demolish a building, but not how to build one or even how to clear away the rubble - "I'll just watch the explosion then sidle off quietly".

The tories are not about to fix any of the problems we've talked about. As we've both said, it's not in their DNA. There is an element of they'll adopt whatever policies, claim or make up new principles to cling to power and keep the gravy (Mmmm, gravy..) train rolling, but when it comes down to it, we're the Frog, they're the Scorpion.

Fantastically put, what I wanted to say but in much better words.