bickster Posted December 9, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2018 1 minute ago, peterms said: No, it's not normal anywhere to have armoured vehicles marked with EU insignia putting down demonstrations against national governments. I really wasn't talking about the flag bit but to be honest I think its a bit of a pissy bed in Moscow situation. There are plenty of images out there of VBRGs in action during the gilets jaunes riots that don't have EU flags on, in fact it's pretty hard to find any that do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 They have their own badge. But chose to just have the EU flag on the vehicles instead, they also chose not to include their motto 'sometimes brutal, always loyal', their role is military restoration of civil order. With the EU flag on the side. If I lived in Kosovo and that roled by, I'd be perfectly happy that it was just an innocent piece of admin.. I'm not sure how else you can look at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 9, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: They have their own badge. But chose to just have the EU flag on the vehicles instead, they also chose not to include their motto 'sometimes brutal, always loyal', their role is military restoration of civil order. With the EU flag on the side. If I lived in Kosovo and that roled by, I'd be perfectly happy that it was just an innocent piece of admin.. I'm not sure how else you can look at it? You can look at it like they were pulled in from some other duty that necessitated the flag, there's no way they are on all the VBRGs in action is Paris, in fact that video is the only time I've seen the flag on them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Yep, it's a tiny thing. I'm not saying it's proof there's a secret EU army waiting to role out. I'm saying they exist, and it's a click along a long path. It's familiarisation, maybe deliberate, maybe lazy, maybe considered unimportant. We can tolerate this, I'm sure it's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 25 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Yep, it's a tiny thing. I'm not saying it's proof there's a secret EU army waiting to role out. I'm saying they exist, and it's a click along a long path. It's familiarisation, maybe deliberate, maybe lazy, maybe considered unimportant. We can tolerate this, I'm sure it's fine. It's fine to question what it's all about. I would and do. It's another thing to take it as evidence that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Yep, agreed. It's also a lot easier for everyone if the mood is expressed at the same time as the minor admin oversight. Rather than once they've spent a few billion on the project and it's a done deal. That particular twitter account and it's contributors don't look like something to bet the house on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Forget all the leave/remain arguments - how is a second referendum 'unfair' or 'a betrayal' exactly? Even forgetting the options, or lack there of, surely if it would be unfair to re-run the referendum in case the public's view had changed this should apply to General Elections too? We should vote once in a generation and that's the decision. It's irrelevant what happens after that decision, what lies are revealed, what outside forces dictate, what cultural shifts there are...You make a decision and stick to it in the face of any realisations because that's what you voted for initially? Seems insane to me. Difference is any potential next referendum would give much clearer options than the last one which was just in or out. The next one would be 'this is what in looks like, this is what out looks like" - that's a real choice. I'd respect that far more than the 51% who all voted for different versions of a Leave than the 49% who all voted for the same Remain. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 hours ago, peterms said: Yes, the article is partisan. I'm not promoting the spin they put on things, simply quoting (what it presents as) the fact that Comey states the dossier was not corroborated. He didn’t state that. He stated that much of it wasn’t. It’s not the same thing. It matters because it’s like if you did a dossier that said I’d done 4 murders and then someone was able to corroborate only a quarter of what your dossier alleged, it still corroborates that I’m a murderer. Further, the nature of significant parts of intelligence material is always likely to be difficult to corroborate. This means a degree of scepticism has to be applied, absolutely and that efforts should be made to gain further evidence in that direction and so on. This is what the FBI and Mueller are doing. It is certain that some of the dossier contrywill not be possibly to corroborate, likely that some is false and equally highly probable that significant parts are true. We already know some of it has been verified and used. In a way it’s analogous to “project fear”. All those government reports etc. Some will be already shown to be accurate, some appear fanciful, some close enough as makes no difference. There back on topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xann Posted December 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 hours ago, jackbauer24 said: how is a second referendum 'unfair' or 'a betrayal' exactly? Hypothetically, if we had a second referendum on it & If it (the referendum) was on "Capital Punishment" for example in 2016, could we in all seriousness glue peoples heads on again & would we want to is my question ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 Watching the CH4 debate from last night. Is Barry the Gardener really the best Labour can do? I hope they keep sending him out to bat, he’s done a great job of explaining Labour's position. Labour's position is fantasy land. Caroline Lucas' wiped the floor with him. Her line about Brexit being a policy for the Right, by the Right was spot on and he didn’t really have an answer for it so resorted to will of the people shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 10, 2018 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 A50, as expected, is unilaterally revocable 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 hours ago, jackbauer24 said: Forget all the leave/remain arguments - how is a second referendum 'unfair' or 'a betrayal' exactly? It will be seen as that by many people, because they were promised x,y and z and they haven't been given it. Instead they will be told that essentially they can't have what theywere promised and not only that, but also there's going to be another ref that will potentially remove any trace of possibility they will ever get their promised utopia. We might look at it differently, but thats how many will see it This wbole thing has been portrayed as black and white, when neither black nor white has been remotely possible or satisfactory. Ultimately the whole thing has been a clusterpork by the combined political and associated cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 hours ago, jackbauer24 said: Forget all the leave/remain arguments - how is a second referendum 'unfair' or 'a betrayal' exactly? Even forgetting the options, or lack there of, surely if it would be unfair to re-run the referendum in case the public's view had changed this should apply to General Elections too? We should vote once in a generation and that's the decision. It's irrelevant what happens after that decision, what lies are revealed, what outside forces dictate, what cultural shifts there are...You make a decision and stick to it in the face of any realisations because that's what you voted for initially? Seems insane to me. Difference is any potential next referendum would give much clearer options than the last one which was just in or out. The next one would be 'this is what in looks like, this is what out looks like" - that's a real choice. I'd respect that far more than the 51% who all voted for different versions of a Leave than the 49% who all voted for the same Remain. Dress it up how you like - but is the same question 2 years later - arguably people have more idea of the implications - but the choice is the same. I voted remain and would love another bite of the cherry - But I can't help thinking a 2nd referendum would piss a load of people off - and may leave us in a even bigger mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) Without the will to revoke unfortunately the judgment is a bit academic. And of course the government has doubled down in reaction with will of power people we aren't revoking it crap. Nice that the judgement firmly puts the sovereignty argument in the bin though. It was always rubbish, and now it's where it belongs. In a bin on the far side of Mars. Edited December 10, 2018 by Chindie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, hippo said: ...But I can't help thinking a 2nd referendum would piss a load of people off... Better than smiley foodbank Tory filth being allowed to tear into the poor, free of the constraints of European courts. Edited December 10, 2018 by Xann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Its funny, in theory what have "leavers" got to be worried about with a 2nd vote now that more facts are available? -> People vote leave again, no problem. -> People who voted leave last time change their mind based on the plethora of more information available and "remain" wins. Why would a leave voter be upset that some of the people who voted leave before changed their mind? They make it sound like the second referendum happened the day after the first because the result wasn't pleasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, Xann said: Better than smiley foodbank Tory filth being allowed to tear into the poor, free of the constraints of European courts. While I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment, what 'constraints' are actually in place by 'European courts'? Because all of the relevant legislation was passed when we were EU members in good standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, Xann said: Better than smiley foodbank Tory filth being allowed to tear into the poor, free of the constraints of European courts. Yes I totally agree. But as much as I wish they didn't Leave won the referendum - if that result doesn't stand - how can a 2nd referendum be expected to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, hippo said: Yes I totally agree. But as much as I wish they didn't Leave won the referendum - if that result doesn't stand - how can a 2nd referendum be expected to because of the new/more mature data of what leave looks like? Clearly it was a flip of a coin back then. Today people can form a more balanced opinion as its much clearer. If people still want to leave based on that then I don't see anyone objecting? If remain won a second referendum then it would be because people who voted leave last time changed their mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts