The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[MakemineVanilla]

36 minutes ago, hippo said:

I think in the short term the euro politicians will deny us access to the single market. But in time the businesses of those country's will lean on those politicians to trade with us. Be a bit of who blinks first.

We could always use Norway as a clearing house for our imports and exports !  

There was some talk before the referendum that our exports having a tariff attached to them wouldn't be the end of the world.

It is interesting how the narrative is being steered towards establishing in the British electorate's minds that failure to get access to the single market would be catastrophic, as they soften us up for a fudge.

It seems they haven't finished trying to scare us yet. 

[villakram]

50 minutes ago, hippo said:

I think in the short term the euro politicians will deny us access to the single market. But in time the businesses of those country's will lean on those politicians to trade with us. Be a bit of who blinks first.

We could always use Norway as a clearing house for our imports and exports !  

Of course! Sacrificing profit over the will of the people is all the rage these days...

[brommy]

4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The EU and the EEA are different. We chose to leave the EU.

The single market has regulatory and legislatory requirements to operate as a single market. So it doesn't just want any 'customer'. It wants ones that can achieve the required standards.

Does the EU single market not trade outside itself?

[tonyh29]

20 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

It seems they haven't finished trying to scare us yet. 

looks that way ...  could be worse I suppose , they could be trying to brand everyone as a racist  ..oh

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

It seems leave voters are more concerned about being lumped in with racists than the actual rise of racism since the referendum. This despite the fact that not many people have said that everyone that voted leave is a racist, rather that their vote legitimized racists and enabled them to go and behave the way they are currently. Certainly, I'm sure plenty of them give a shit about this worrisome rise in incidents, but frankly I don't hear many accepting the costs of their victory. Their silence is damning.

[brommy]

It is possible that a Remain result would have lead to even more racist attacks. It appears the referendum itself could be blamed, but we shouldn't allow a very small minority of mindless idiots to dictate to democracy.

[RimmyJimmer]

59 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

It seems leave voters are more concerned about being lumped in with racists than the actual rise of racism since the referendum. This despite the fact that not many people have said that everyone that voted leave is a racist, rather that their vote legitimized racists and enabled them to go and behave the way they are currently. Certainly, I'm sure plenty of them give a shit about this worrisome rise in incidents, but frankly I don't hear many accepting the costs of their victory. Their silence is damning.

 

Is that like muslims accepting the cost of their religious views because a mindless few terrorists act in the name of Islam?

Pathetic comment

[BigJim]

Just now, RimmyJimmer said:

 

Is that like muslims accepting the cost of their religious views because a mindless few terrorists act in the name of Islam?

Pathetic comment

Not just pathetic.

Or course it is everyone’s responsibility to speak out against all manifestations of racism everywhere, especially of the vile type that have been reported following the result of the referendum.

But it is wrong and dangerous to state that the Leave vote has legitimized and enabled racist actions.

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, RimmyJimmer said:

 

Is that like muslims accepting the cost of their religious views because a mindless few terrorists act in the name of Islam?

Pathetic comment

It isn't pathetic though. 

People (see: some) are using the result as an excuse to abuse people both verbally and physically. 

In truth, people almost certainly held these views but in light of 52% people 'agreeing with them' it isnt hard to see the link in their thought process. 

[RimmyJimmer]

17 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It isn't pathetic though. 

People (see: some) are using the result as an excuse to abuse people both verbally and physically. 

In truth, people almost certainly held these views but in light of 52% people 'agreeing with them' it isnt hard to see the link in their thought process. 

52% agreed with mindless racists??

Keep digging

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, brommy said:

Does the EU single market not trade outside itself?

Of course it does.

But it's easier to trade within it than into it.

[StefanAVFC]

4 minutes ago, RimmyJimmer said:

52% agreed with mindless racists??

Keep digging

It's almost as if I wrote 'agreeing with them' with '' surrounding the phrase on purpose. 

Im saying that these idiots might see it as 52% of people agreeing with their views. Not that they do think the same way. I thought that was clear with ''. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It's almost as if I wrote 'agreeing with them' with '' surrounding the phrase on purpose. 

Im saying that these idiots might see it as 52% of people agreeing with their views. Not that they do think the same way. I thought that was clear with ''. 

It WAS clear

[tonyh29]

25 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

It isn't pathetic though. 

People (see: some) are using the result as an excuse to abuse people both verbally and physically. 

In truth, people almost certainly held these views but in light of 52% people 'agreeing with them' it isnt hard to see the link in their thought process. 

 or these sort of events have always taken place and people are now reporting them where as they didn't previously ?  (I imagine previously they weren't deemed front page news either )

the shit head kids on the tram need a clip around the ear , that was disgusting  ,  but some of the other incidents I'd be sceptical of , in much the same way I'm sceptical of any events reported on Twitter  .... there was one example of "racism"  going around that was clearly a rehash of a previous version with just the anecdotal town name changed ... so was that a genuine race attack ? , I'm inclined to say No ( to both versions doing the rounds on social media )  ... the Hi Hitler card is another one that has circulated from more than one town , all very clever to expose how thick a racist is , but clearly not real  ...

that's not denial that there is a bit of an under current in the air , my own wife is suddenly worried that people are going to turn on her , but that "fear" has been put in her mind by hearing reports on the news rather than any actual perceived fear ( she thinks now that the old man that hit her car and drove off did so because she was foreign , a week earlier and it would have been that he drove off because he was an old git who had probably been drinking )  ... so news outlets need to report sensibly  the more they report the more people will copy /  the more foreigners feel frightened  etc etc

I suspect you are right that people have become bold as they think they have public support ,but I still don't think the UK has become racist overnight and I think it's wrong to blame these incidents on the vote last week

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by tonyh29

[Chindie]

When you have a bizarrely popular political party producing a poster campaign stealing Nazi imagery, and a campaign for a referendum that essentially became a running discussion on Othering on nationalist lines, it's hard not to conclude that the referendum legitimised racism. The Leave campaign and the discussion that came from it tied into discourse and language that is familiar to racists and xenophobes, and showed them authority figures openly using and espousing views they normally wouldn't hear in public. That legitimises those viewpoints and lo and behold, Poles have cards telling them to go home, Newcastle town centre had a banner openly advocating repatriation and many people of non white descent have morons telling them to get out we voted to get rid of you. Including kids .

[BigJim]

8 minutes ago, Chindie said:

When you have a bizarrely popular political party producing a poster campaign stealing Nazi imagery, and a campaign for a referendum that essentially became a running discussion on Othering on nationalist lines, it's hard not to conclude that the referendum legitimised racism. The Leave campaign and the discussion that came from it tied into discourse and language that is familiar to racists and xenophobes, and showed them authority figures openly using and espousing views they normally wouldn't hear in public. That legitimises those viewpoints and lo and behold, Poles have cards telling them to go home, Newcastle town centre had a banner openly advocating repatriation and many people of non white descent have morons telling them to get out we voted to get rid of you. Including kids .

No doubt the campaign had many extremely distasteful elements. But the VOTE did not legitimise anything, except possibly withdrawing from the EU. I'm sure you can see the difference between the campaign and the vote.

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, BigJim said:

No doubt the campaign had many extremely distasteful elements. But the VOTE did not legitimise anything, except possibly withdrawing from the EU. I'm sure you can see the difference between the campaign and the vote.

There's certainly an argument that the result also legitimises it.

The same person that voted Leave because of the grim racist elements of the campaign and/or their already established racism could look at the result as confirming their position as correct (or having won, or whatever).

There's also the rejection of Europe that is implied by the Leave vote itself also legitimises xenophobia.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, brommy said:

It is possible that a Remain result would have lead to even more racist attacks.

Who knows. I think that the leave vote has maybe led racists to believe that they're "right" and lots of other people share their racism, so instead of keeping it to themselves they think it's now ok to openly exhibit their racism and bigotry and hate.

It's not fair to blame someone who took part in a democratic referendum for the recent outbreaks of racism, whichever way they voted.

It's also fair to say that elements of the unofficial Leave campaigning were absolutely racist and that some Leave voters are clearly racist and now emboldened to "proudly" proclaim their hatred of foreigners.

[BigJim]

18 minutes ago, Chindie said:

There's certainly an argument that the result also legitimises it.

The same person that voted Leave because of the grim racist elements of the campaign and/or their already established racism could look at the result as confirming their position as correct (or having won, or whatever).

There's also the rejection of Europe that is implied by the Leave vote itself also legitimises xenophobia.

Can't really agree, I'm afraid.

But, as usual, we're straying from the point which was that the action of voting Leave absolutely did not legitimise, condone, enable or otherwise provoke racist action, and to suggest that it did is both wrong and dangerous. The Leave voters (of which I was not one, fwiw) are not actually to blame for this, much as some would like to make it appear so.

[useless]

Pretty offensive sign by Cressage. It's been vandalized but I'm surprised it hasn't been taken down completely.