blandy Posted May 2, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Awol said: If the EU gave a monkey's f*** about its citizens in the U.K. they would silo the issue away from all other discussions and sort it out as the overriding priority - y'know, like the U.K. Gov proposed to do before we'd even triggered A50. Instead it's all 'money money give us your money'. The EU in a nutshell. As for their citizens getting the same rights as everyone else in the UK I don't see the problem? Should they have more rights than anyone else because they are European? Sounds a bit, well, racist. Don't you think? Agree on the top para. They too are not helping people and their lives. Also agree to an extent on the second para. Most of the universe seems to revolve around money, ultimately. It's hardly a surprise, though, is it? Shouldn't the UK be a little better prepared to address and negotiate and discuss what is so clearly one of the key points of leaving? Thirdly - I disagree with you. WHether it's French people who've been living and (say) teaching here for the past 15, 20 years, or Brits doing whatever in Spain or Poland, taking away their current rioghts and reverting them to the same status as visitors from China or India or the U.S. is massively unjust. They have homes and family and property and become part of society. Rendering them liable to be basically thrown out of the country is wrong 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Just now, Xann said: You're going to get that gif again. I'll take that as point made and leave it there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Agree on the top para. They too are not helping people and their lives. Also agree to an extent on the second para. Most of the universe seems to revolve around money, ultimately. It's hardly a surprise, though, is it? Shouldn't the UK be a little better prepared to address and negotiate and discuss what is so clearly one of the key points of leaving? Thirdly - I disagree with you. WHether it's French people who've been living and (say) teaching here for the past 15, 20 years, or Brits doing whatever in Spain or Poland, taking away their current rioghts and reverting them to the same status as visitors from China or India or the U.S. is massively unjust. They have homes and family and property and become part of society. Rendering them liable to be basically thrown out of the country is wrong If they were being thrown out of the country then I'd be heading to Parliament with you and a pitchfork. Unless you've seen something from the government saying different that sounds like a particular mischievous and irresponsible scare story. Anyone already here will have the right to remain, that's been made clear. What EU nationals won't have is appeal to a foreign legal body that can overrule decisions of the British legal system - I think that was the outcome Juncker was shooting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Awol said: Anyone already here will have the right to remain, that's been made clear. Made clear by whom, how and when? And, by made clear, more is needed than a mere statement from the government or a government minister. Edited May 2, 2017 by snowychap 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 2, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, Awol said: Anyone already here will have the right to remain, that's been made clear No, it hasn't. There's been Liam Fox saying they were a bargaining chip, then when that caused as fuss there were various soothing words about "well we'd like to be settle this as soon as possible..." and then there was the leak in the Franfurt Sunday paper, which my (admittedly rusty) german translated as "For May, no problem. The EU citizens should simply be treated as holding the same rights as other third-country citizens" So, it's most definitely not "clear". Additionally of course there have been many confirmed stories of EU residents applying for UK citizenship to "make sure" they were OK, and being turned down (often by beaurocratic idiocy...or maybe it's like the benefits agency...?) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, blandy said: No, it hasn't. There's been Liam Fox saying they were a bargaining chip, then when that caused as fuss there were various soothing words about "well we'd like to be settle this as soon as possible..." and then there was the leak in the Franfurt Sunday paper, which my (admittedly rusty) german translated as "For May, no problem. The EU citizens should simply be treated as holding the same rights as other third-country citizens" So, it's most definitely not "clear". Additionally of course there have been many confirmed stories of EU residents applying for UK citizenship to "make sure" they were OK, and being turned down (often by beaurocratic idiocy...or maybe it's like the benefits agency...?) Fox is an idiot and not in any position to comment, the Prime Minister has said in Parliament that she wants to guarantee the right of EU citizens in the U.K. to stay and will do so as part of a deal that ensures Brits in Europe have the same rights. In effect we've been waiting for Brussels who, true to form, have decided to talk about money first. Another subtle way to increase pressure on the UK on the negotiations knowing what a hot button issue this is in the UK. In other words the EU has chosen to use its citizens as pawns in a political game to extract money from the UK, the cynical scumbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 The secretary of international trade of the ruling government isn't in any postion to comment? I'd love to know who is by that logic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 2, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Awol said: Fox is an idiot and not in any position to comment, the Prime Minister has said in Parliament that she wants to guarantee the right of EU citizens in the U.K. to stay and will do so as part of a deal that ensures Brits in Europe have the same rights. In effect we've been waiting for Brussels who, true to form, have decided to talk about money first. Another subtle way to increase pressure on the UK on the negotiations knowing what a hot button issue this is in the UK. In other words the EU has chosen to use its citizens as pawns in a political game to extract money from the UK, the cynical scumbags. No. that's not quite right. We know May has said she'd like to, but not that she does. We also now know that away from the public eye, in talking to Junkers she's said something completely different to the EU. Like Fox, May is also not to be trusted. The EU, they too are behaving badly, I agree, but it's not a case of "nice PM, nasty EU". It's a case of "nasty May, nasty EU". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, blandy said: The EU, they too are behaving badly, I agree, but it's not a case of "nice PM, nasty EU". It's a case of "nasty May, nasty EU". agreed. This whole crusade to demonise the EU and champion May as some champion of citizens' rights comes across as shallow and insincere at best. Edited May 2, 2017 by StefanAVFC 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: The secretary of international trade of the ruling government isn't in any postion to comment? I'd love to know who is by that logic. Fox's job is to talk about trade. He's as involved in formulating migration policy as he is discussing nuclear fusion at Sellafield. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Migration is clearly a topic that is part of trade deals though. All of this Brexit nonsense is intrinsically interlinked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 2, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Awol said: Fox's job is to talk about trade. He's as involved in formulating migration policy as he is discussing nuclear fusion at Sellafield. He's a member of the cabinet and of the Brexit team. Yes he's a monumental Bell end, but he is in a position to know the policy and thus comment on it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, blandy said: No. that's not quite right. We know May has said she'd like to, but not that she does. We also now know that away from the public eye, in talking to Junkers she's said something completely different to the EU. Like Fox, May is also not to be trusted. The EU, they too are behaving badly, I agree, but it's not a case of "nice PM, nasty EU". It's a case of "nasty May, nasty EU". Can we please get away from this idea that the article in Germany was something other than a political hit piece designed to undermine the UK negotiating position?! It was transparent EU propaganda released via a friendly journo/publication. If anything it simply confirms they are going to play dirty and not behave in good faith - useful to know upfront. I'm no fan of May but is she PM now, will be on 9th of June (it's not happening!) and there is no viable alternative leader for these negotiations. She'll do the right thing by EU migrants because it's the popular position in the country and good politics, not because she is good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 8 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Migration is clearly a topic that is part of trade deals though. All of this Brexit nonsense is intrinsically interlinked. Migration policy is not decided by the department for international trade. You can check it if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Nice try but I wasn't remotely suggesting that. Some trade deals have caveats when it comes to migration. We also both know this. Also, as Blandy stated above, he's in the cabinet and team Brexit. He is well positioned to make comments on all things Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 What I am wondering is how Britain are going to deal with the EFTA agreement. Surely the Swiss\Norwegian\Icelandic people in Britain fall into a complete new category? EFTA is not the same as EEA - is it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 2, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Awol said: Can we please get away from this idea that the article in Germany was something other than a political hit piece designed to undermine the UK negotiating position?! It was transparent EU propaganda released via a friendly journo/publication. If anything it simply confirms they are going to play dirty and not behave in good faith - useful to know upfront. I'm no fan of May but is she PM now, will be on 9th of June (it's not happening!) and there is no viable alternative leader for these negotiations. She'll do the right thing by EU migrants because it's the popular position in the country and good politics, not because she is good. Yes, the article in the German paper was a leak. Maybe it was meant to undermine the UK position, maybe not. Let's assume that was at least part of the intent. The stuff on "much more sceptical of success now" seems highly likely to be "spin", I agree. However, the content in terms of what was reportedly said, plus the interview I heard on the radio with the journo who wrote it plus the comments from May and from Rudd on it basically show it was true in the reporting of the conversation content. There's been no denial of the content by anyone. I mean May saying we don't owe them anything. It's not exactly a shock is it. Junkers saying no cash no deal - ditto. Fishing out the info from the spin isn't that hard, is it. Doing that is not partisan, it's just analysing. [edit] actually it probably is if you don't speak German and have to fish through UK press reporting of German reporting of a leaked conversation, so perhaps that's not a very good point I'm making[/edit] Leaks will continue to happen and both sides will aim to influence public opinion and partner perceptions via leaks. That's what politicians do, after all. And May as much as anyone - remember her squabbles with the idiot Gove, leaks about Hammond and so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 13 minutes ago, magnkarl said: What I am wondering is how Britain are going to deal with the EFTA agreement. Surely the Swiss\Norwegian\Icelandic people in Britain fall into a complete new category? EFTA is not the same as EEA - is it? Interesting point, haven't even heard it mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Quote The publication of a report into Southern rail troubles has been delayed until after the General Election, leading MPs to criticise the government for sitting on the findings. The report looking into Southern owner Govia Thameslink Railway, was carried out by Chris Gibb, a non-executive Network Rail director with 35 years’ experience in the industry. The Department for Transport (DfT) received the report at the end of last year and has faced calls to publish its contents, to provide more insight into the running of the train operator. City A.M. This is cos the Tory pricks penned the shittiest deal ever, paying Southern no matter what shit they serve up. Indeed the head of Southern got a 200K pay rise despite the 10,000 + cancellations. Forget all this though, of course the Tories are best sorted to negotiate Brexit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: What I am wondering is how Britain are going to deal with the EFTA agreement. Surely the Swiss\Norwegian\Icelandic people in Britain fall into a complete new category? EFTA is not the same as EEA - is it? The government's page (in light of my previous post I know, I know!) on the status of EU nationals says: Quote NOTES (1) All references to EU nationals in this guidance also cover the European Economic Area (EEA) and Swiss nationals. One would assume that whatever they negotiate with the EU on those issues which already automatically include EEA countries (or the Swiss) would apply to those other countries, too. That may not be correct, though, and you're right to bring it up as something which may add to the complexity of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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