blandy Posted June 26, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 26, 2016 12 minutes ago, snowychap said: Kuenssberg putting the boot in, too: No, I don't think so. She's doing her job as a journalist. What is happening IMO is that the Labour MPs who didn't and don't want Corbyn as leader are feeding the media stories, which the media then reports. The same is happening with the tories. The same happens with any party where there's leadership issues. Shooting the messenger is all too common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I think Corbyn was scraping the barrel trying to find a shadow cabinet in the first place, so good luck to him now. I had a look and her wiki page claims that Ed M appointed her shadow minister of transport back in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Shooting the messenger is all too common. I'm not 'shooting' anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 That's 8 Labour Front Benchers gone so far today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 44 minutes ago, snowychap said: I consider myself to be a bit of a politics geek (albeit a lapsing one) but I have to ask: Who the bloody hell was Lilian Greenwood? That was my first thought. Here's the entire shadow cabinet, including those gone in the last 24 hours. How many names do you recognise? Eight recognised names for me, I couldn't tell you what most of those 8 actually do, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 13 minutes ago, Davkaus said: How many names do you recognise? Eight recognised names for me, I couldn't tell you what most of those 8 actually do, though. Not including Corbyn, twenty but like you I couldn't tell you all their jobs (other than McDonnell, Burnham, Smith, Abbott, Alexander, Benn, Winterton, Thornberry and Falconer - oh and I know that Angela Eagle does the deputy PMQs bit but I doubt that's her proper job). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Ok, you clearly pay far more attention than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Ok, you clearly pay far more attention than I do. I think it's more just a case of me being a tad sad, tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Yeah, I've heard of nearly all of them. It's not that surprising that most aren't household names. Firstly, Labour lost a ton of seats in 2010, losing some big names, lots of 1997-2010 figures have been kicked upstairs, and then Corbyn isn't exactly a normal leader so a lot of these people are members of the permanent backbench 'awkward squad' who got promoted. It also takes time to learn about people in politics, and some of these are from the 2010 and 2015 intakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Good riddance, the more power hungry, me above all else, individuals that are drummed out of politics the better. Corbyn promotes ideas not more of the same failed wannabe laissez faire neo-lib politics, which is destroying the bottom 50-70% of society. Edited June 26, 2016 by villakram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 26, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 26, 2016 4 hours ago, snowychap said: I'm not 'shooting' anyone. I know - I mean the Labour people and the people who started a petition against her. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 26, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 26, 2016 4 hours ago, chrisp65 said: where is the government? Wondering who's going to be their next leader, same as Labour. Bunch of numpties the lot of 'em. This is the Labour thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 6 minutes ago, villakram said: Corbyn promotes ideas not more of the same failed wannabe laissez faire neo-lib politics, which is destroying the bottom 50-70% of society. But he's terrible at promoting them, it's no good having the greatest ideas in the world if you can't even convince your own MP's let alone the voters to back you to put them into fruition. He just has no ability to lead. Unfortunately. His own vanity won't allow him to back a better leader to work behind. One that can win over voters. He bangs on about his democratic mandate of 250k labour party members. The Labour MP's we say are moving against him were elected by over 9 million members of the public. I want a strong leader with Corbyn's ideals. But maybe that doesn't exist. A weak leader of any kind is completely useless. So we have to settle for a strong leader who at best is more principled than a Tory, it's not perfect. But at least they could actually run the country. Not stand by doing little more than quietly judging it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 12 minutes ago, jon_c said: But he's terrible at promoting them, it's no good having the greatest ideas in the world if you can't even convince your own MP's let alone the voters to back you to put them into fruition. He just has no ability to lead. Unfortunately. His own vanity won't allow him to back a better leader to work behind. One that can win over voters. He bangs on about his democratic mandate of 250k labour party members. The Labour MP's we say are moving against him were elected by over 9 million members of the public. I want a strong leader with Corbyn's ideals. But maybe that doesn't exist. A weak leader of any kind is completely useless. So we have to settle for a strong leader who at best is more principled than a Tory, it's not perfect. But at least they could actually run the country. Not stand by doing little more than quietly judging it. Please re-read what you've written. aka: I'd like a charismatic strong(wo)man to lead us? We don't need this and it's infact one of the largest current problems with politics. Intelligent people are not enough, no we need clowns of some form who'll also entertain and comfort us. What about all of the incredibly useful people in society who are not type-A personalites/extroverts/crowd pleasers? I thought the whole point of this was to create a better society. Being able to enter a room and immediately light it up, probably helps... I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 26, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 26, 2016 1 minute ago, villakram said: I thought the whole point of this was to create a better society. Being able to enter a room and immediately light it up, probably helps... I suppose. It's not so much that we need a performing clown. The problem Corbyn has is that (as with all parties) there are a range of views in them. As there are in the country. Corbyn seems basically incapable of seeing the world as it is and adapting accordingly. He is an idealist, which is good in as much as he genuinely believes in something. But his failure to accept compromise and other views to form an overall direction of travel is a massive handicap. He is unelectable in terms of PM. His party haven't helped him to say the least, but he's lame and in a kind of bubble of North London dippy 1970s idealism surrounded by and trusting only of people like himself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 27 minutes ago, jon_c said: I want a strong leader I don't know why people are so obsessed with the idea of wanting/needing 'strong' leaders and 'strong' government. Strong governments and strong leaders tend to ride roughshod over the people and tend to make policy decisions that the people end up regretting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 I do understand that. The realistic side of things must be appreciated. But when are we going to stand up for some idea about reforming society, if, even in the labor party, an individual with social democrat leanings is undermined from day one. It hasn't just been his so called colleagues either. There has been a massive media (read business) campaign against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Ok you don't like the term "strong leader". How about good communicator, Corbyn can't communicate his ideals to people in a way that's makes people agree with him. To quote Vonnegut, the greatest scientist could explain the most complicated ideas so that even a nine year old could understand them. Well I believe a politician needs to be able to do the same, but add to that the ability to make them listen too. You might not like that kind of politician but they are the ones who will get elected. And a Labour party with no votes is as good as useless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, jon_c said: Ok you don't like the term "strong leader". How about good communicator, Corbyn can't communicate his ideals to people in a way that's makes people agree with him. To quote Vonnegut, the greatest scientist could explain the most complicated ideas so that even a nine year old could understand them. Well I believe a politician needs to be able to do the same, but add to that the ability to make them listen too. You might not like that kind of politician but they are the ones who will get elected. And a Labour party with no votes is as good as useless. It's not about not liking the term 'strong leader', it's about having a problem with what people think they are demanding when they want strong leadership and strong government. We hear it all the time and not just when complaining about Corbyn - we heard it before the 2010 election especially. I like good communicators and Corbyn's not a bad communicator if people listen to what he says (don't take that as agreement with what he says) though he's no great orator, that's for sure. I disagree, however, that people want good communicators as their leaders and politicians. They want politicians to tell them the things they want to hear and tell them they're right to think and feel what they do. Edited June 26, 2016 by snowychap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 But some ideas cannot be explained correctly if put in the terms that a 9yr old would understand. The issues that demand attention vis-a-vis the wealth distribution, the underfunded pension systems given demographic evolution, the advance of technology and the shrinking of the planet, climate change and sustainability are important and when explained in a simplistic easy to understand manner lead to hyperbole and all of the -isms. E.g., the recent referendum campaign. Perhaps one should acknowledge their own limitations, be that in knowledge or perhaps even intelligence and then defer and/or rely on experts. Such silly idealism, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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