The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[HanoiVillan]

3 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I think its a one hell of a stretch to say that Brexit hasn't happened purely because of Corbyn and his Labour party. Perhaps Corbyn would like to take public ownership of that claim? It would be surprising given that he has spent several years doing his best to hide his and the parties view on Brexit from the electorate. So no, sorry I'm not accepting that as anything remotely close to historical fact.

What do you think would have prevented Brexit from happening, if as predicted beforehand May had won the 2017 GE with an increased majority?

4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

In terms of 'making an impact' I think it was perfectly clear the context in which I said that, the above isn't it, it was in relation to being seen as an effective opposition and potential alternative Government. I think it is abundantly clear that Labour under Corbyn has failed to make any kind of impact in this regard as polls, which you are eager to reject, have consistently shown.

I'm not 'eager to reject' polls at all; I'm not sure where you have got that idea from. I do think they need to be aggregated to be of much use, and that they have weaker predictive power than some people maybe think, but that's not the same as 'rejecting' them. I completely agree that Labour are in a poor overall position in the polls, though in aggregate it isn't quite as bad as some in this thread have made out, eg:

 

4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

But.... doesn't that perhaps mean the issue is in the Labour party and groups like Momentum?

Yes the rebranded New Labour was defeated in the last leadership contest but how exactly has that worked out for Labour since?

Perhaps the membership of the Labour party needs to think beyond its own internal ballot and think about what an electable leader looks like (I don't mean literally) because its not Corbyn.

Obviously the membership is a problem for centrists. However, that's just kind of tough, isn't it? They need to find a way to persuade Labour members that their programme would either be better for people's lives, or more electable, or ideally both, and that's just the job they have to do. Alternatively, they could just give up and join TIG or something, but they don't seem keen on that idea for some reason. 

[Xann]

22 minutes ago, bickster said:

Which Tory fiasco is being overshadowed by the Labour Antisemitism fiasco?

Seriously? The whole country. Everything they've touched has turned to shit, unless you're a chum of course? The names of their ministers are synonymous with incompetence, greed and cruelty.

Let's remember the progressive party without baggage (that get my vote) poll at 5% - They're not going to stop fat fingers getting into the NHS for a spell yet.

I don't want to vote Red or Blue, but Corbyn isn't Blair, and imho public services will be treated more kindly under him than any realistic alternatives.

Not voting because you don't like what's on offer just empowers loons and unsavoury types that do like what's on offer, and the next GE is crucial.

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, Xann said:

Seriously? The whole country. Everything they've touched has turned to shit, unless you're a chum of course? The names of their ministers are synonymous with incompetence, greed and cruelty.

Can't stop reading about it, it's everywhere you look. You appear not to have understood the point I was making.

I'll decide which way my vote goes whenever the next election is called but as it stands now, it will not be Labour because Corbyn is an incompetent and I detest my local Labour MP who couldn't have an independent thought in his head if he tried, regardless of the antisemitism

 

[Xann]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Can't stop reading about it, it's everywhere you look.

Top 10 U.K. Newspapers by Circulation

Data updated – June 2019

1. The Sun

2. Daily Mail

3. The Sun on Sunday

4. Mail On Sunday

5. The Sunday Times

6. Daily Mirror

7. The Times

8. Sunday Mirror

9. Daily Telegraph

10. Daily Star

Looks like 80% Labour bashers to me - It's the Greys that read these that keep the Tory shitshow afloat.

Like you, I'd rather not vote Red, but the alternative is overwhelmingly likely to be worse.

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Xann said:

Top 10 U.K. Newspapers by Circulation

Data updated – June 2019

1. The Sun

2. Daily Mail

3. The Sun on Sunday

4. Mail On Sunday

5. The Sunday Times

6. Daily Mirror

7. The Times

8. Sunday Mirror

9. Daily Telegraph

10. Daily Star

Looks like 80% Labour bashers to me - It's the Greys that read these that keep the Tory shitshow afloat.

Like you, I'd rather not vote Red, but the alternative is overwhelmingly likely to be worse.

As Bicks says they are covering the tory mess. The Sun  headline from June. The other papers have this stuff too

Quote

WAR OF WARDS 

NHS beds crisis ‘critical’ as more sick Brits left stranded in hospital corridors last month than at the height of winter

Mail, March

Quote

NHS 'must take urgent action' to clear backlog of patients needing surgery as nearly 230,000 people have been waiting at least six months for treatment

I don't read those rags, but a quick yahoogle for "The Sun headlines NHS" etc shows the rags might be (ok, are) editorially nasty right wing bog roll, but they don't hide the state of things behind Corbyn and chums' inability to handle anti-semitism 

[Xann]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

As Bicks says they are covering the tory mess.

You're having a giggle - Compare to how many inches of anti Semitism, even without general Corbyn bashing.

[bobzy]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

As Bicks says they are covering the tory mess. The Sun  headline from June. The other papers have this stuff too

Mail, March

I don't read those rags, but a quick yahoogle for "The Sun headlines NHS" etc shows the rags might be (ok, are) editorially nasty right wing bog roll, but they don't hide the state of things behind Corbyn and chums' inability to handle anti-semitism 

Strangely (read: not at all strangely) the two articles you've linked to which highlight all of this bad news and attribute it to the current, Conservative government don't once mention "Conservative" or "Tories" or anything to link them at all.

It's not "covering the Tory mess", it's just stating the mess in the UK and then saying the NHS needs to improve.

[Demitri_C]

Seriously guys is any else worried that farage could get in? The state of the two main parties is so dreadful at the moment I can see people boycotting both.

The brexit party seems to be getting a huge amount of support from Labour and conservatives voters.

Imagine farage as PM? My god

[Xann]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Seriously guys is any else worried that farage could get in?

No, but he might have the Tories by the scruttocks a la the DUP, if it's close?

[Demitri_C]

11 minutes ago, Xann said:

No, but he might have the Tories by the scruttocks a la the DUP, if it's close?

Possibly but I think farage is getting more and more support as each day passes.

If brexit drags on for another year you really can see farage getting a  job in parliament. 

We say Cameron and may were bad. But farage would be nothing short of a disaster.  

We would have poor relations with the whole of Europe, have riots on the streets and he might even get Tommy Robinson  a job somewhere. 

Let's hope he is nowhere near 

[Chindie]

34 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Seriously guys is any else worried that farage could get in? The state of the two main parties is so dreadful at the moment I can see people boycotting both.

The brexit party seems to be getting a huge amount of support from Labour and conservatives voters.

Imagine farage as PM? My god

No.

He might manage to see his party get a seat at last, through the sheer disdain of the other parties botching Brexit but he wouldn't want to be PM and luckily he won't be. He's only ever seen success at Euro elections, basically home turf for Eurosceptic protest votes. Farage likes that, he gets a nice pay cheque and gets to do **** all bar 6 monthly media bait rants where he actually bothers to turn up.

One of the issues Labour has in this regard is basically it doesn't matter what they do now as far as Brexit goes. They could do an ad where they park Corbyn outside Brussels telling us how much he adores the EU and wants to stay in, intercut with a montage of him **** the EU flag, marrying the EU flag, playing on the garden with lots of little EU stars, enjoying a nice red to the sunset with the EU, telling us he and Labour are Remain to the end and still it wouldn't matter because they're definitely Leavers trying to trick you into a vote. Brexit is nothing but a loser for Labour, which is a shame when it's the single biggest policy concern of the day.

[TrentVilla]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

What do you think would have prevented Brexit from happening, if as predicted beforehand May had won the 2017 GE with an increased majority?

I'm not 'eager to reject' polls at all; I'm not sure where you have got that idea from. I do think they need to be aggregated to be of much use, and that they have weaker predictive power than some people maybe think, but that's not the same as 'rejecting' them. I completely agree that Labour are in a poor overall position in the polls, though in aggregate it isn't quite as bad as some in this thread have made out, eg:

 

Obviously the membership is a problem for centrists. However, that's just kind of tough, isn't it? They need to find a way to persuade Labour members that their programme would either be better for people's lives, or more electable, or ideally both, and that's just the job they have to do. Alternatively, they could just give up and join TIG or something, but they don't seem keen on that idea for some reason. 

I'm not really interested in a debate on a hypothetical debate on Brexit.... tempting as some might find that prospect I'm sure

I've already stated my view in relation to your assertion that Corbyn stopped it, as I said previously that wasn't really the point I was making but I will await with interest Corbyn taking credit.

Apologies if you weren't eager to reject polls, something I read in one of your posts certainly gave me that impression.

On membership, you say its a problem for centrists and undoubtedly that is true. Yet you then say it is "just kind of tough, isn't it" which is frankly the crux of the problem with Labour. You say that like Labour don't need the centrists, like they are unimportant or a problem and that is exactly the issue that Labour have they simply don't recognise the importance of the centre ground voter, either within their party or beyond. That attitude to those in the middle is why many feel alienated from the party currently and why Corbyn has absolutely no chance of winning a majority in the HoC's.

It is exactly this attitude and failure to even attempt to incorporate the middle that is the critical failing. You say they need to persuade the party leadership that theirs is a better way or go elsewhere, how can you not see that this is the very issue Corbyn's Labour are doomed to fail.

[tonyh29]

2 hours ago, Xann said:

No, but he might have the Tories by the scruttocks a la the DUP, if it's close?

barring any major cluster ****  ( so a good chance )  Brexit should be done by any GE , so the Brexit party become irrelevant ..unless they are going to be campaigning for us to re-join

[Xann]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

barring any major cluster ****  ( so a good chance )  Brexit should be done by any GE , so the Brexit party become irrelevant ..unless they are going to be campaigning for us to re-join

The crystal ball is cloudy on all these matters.

[bickster]

35 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Brexit should be done by any GE

tbh I think it'll be the other way around, I think Boris will not be able to prorogue parliament and he'll actually need a GE to even atempt leaving, thing is, he'll lose it

[tonyh29]

18 minutes ago, bickster said:

tbh I think it'll be the other way around, I think Boris will not be able to prorogue parliament and he'll actually need a GE to even atempt leaving, thing is, he'll lose it

I’d be more inclined to agree if you weren’t on record as saying Boris would never lead the party as he’s too unpopular  

 

[bickster]

54 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I’d be more inclined to agree if you weren’t on record as saying Boris would never lead the party as he’s too unpopular  

 

I'm absolutely sure he will now and I support his endeavours wholeheartedly... he will be the death of the party

[peterms]

8 hours ago, bickster said:

It exists, it is a problem, pretending otherwise because you don't believe what you read is daft. I've said all along some of the antisemitism thing is an over reaction, it is over blown, it is being used as a weapon BUT and its a huge BUT it also exists on a far wider scale than it exists across society, its a problem, a problem I see with my own eyes and one Labour seems reluctant to address apart form attacking anyone who dares mention it. 

Some info here.

Quote

In 2015, 2016 and 2017, the Campaign Against Antisemitism (CAA) commissioned YouGov to survey British attitudes towards Jews.[326] The 2017 survey found that supporters of the Labour Party were less likely to hold antisemitic views than those of the Conservative Party or the UK Independence Party (UKIP), while those of the Liberal Democrats were the least likely to hold such views. 32% of Labour supporters endorsed at least one "antisemitic attitude", as defined by the CAA, compared to 30% for the Liberal Democrat, 39% for UKIP supporters, and 40% for the Conservatives.[326][327] Further analysis by the blog Evolve Politics of the survey data revealed that, among Labour Party supporters, antisemitism had declined between 2015 and 2017.[328]

Antisemitic attitudes among the UK population by political position according to the 2017 JPR survey: The very right-wing are the most antisemitic, while those on the left of the political spectrum are in line with the average of the general public.

A Populus poll during August 2018 found the wider British public did not pay much attention to the prominent news coverage over antisemitism in the Labour Party. No more than 5% rated it as the news story they had noticed most.[329]

A study into contemporary antisemitism in Britain by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research (JPR) in September 2017 study found that those on the political left were no more likely than average to hold antisemitic attitudes, but were more likely to hold anti-Israel attitudes, especially those on the far-left.[330] When discussing the link between political views and antisemitism, the study found that "Levels of antisemitism among those on the left-wing of the political spectrum, including the far-left, are indistinguishable from those found in the general population. Yet, all parts of those on the left of the political spectrum – including the 'slightly left-of-centre,' the 'fairly left-wing' and the 'very left-wing' – exhibit higher levels of anti Israelism than average." It went on, "The most antisemitic group on the political spectrum consists of those who identify as very right-wing: the presence of antisemitic attitudes in this group is 2 to 4 times higher compared to the general population."[330] It continued: "However, in relation to anti-Israel attitudes, the very left-wing lead: 78% (75–82%) in this group endorse at least one anti-Israel attitude, in contrast to 56% in the general population, and 23% (19–26%) hold 6–9 such attitudes, in contrast to 9% in the general population. Elevated levels of anti-Israel attitudes are also observed in other groups on the political left: the fairly left-wing and those slightly left-of-centre. The lowest level of anti-Israel attitudes is observed in the political centre and among those who are slightly right-of-centre or fairly right-wing." The report, however, found that "...anti-Israel attitudes are not, as a general rule, antisemitic; but the stronger a person's anti-Israel views, the more likely they are to hold antisemitic attitudes. A majority of those who hold anti-Israel attitudes do not espouse any antisemitic attitudes, but a significant minority of those who hold anti-Israel attitudes hold them alongside antisemitic attitudes. Therefore, antisemitism and anti-Israel attitudes exist both separately and together."[331] The study stated that in "surveys of attitudes towards ethnic and religious minorities... The most consistently found pattern across different surveys is heightened animosity towards Jews on the political right..." and that "The political left, captured by voting intention or actual voting for Labour, appears in these surveys as a more Jewish-friendly, or neutral, segment of the population."[53]

Of course, for those who wish to equate Jews with Israel, and antisemitism with criticism of the actions of the Israeli state, this is not accepted.

Though why anyone would equate criticism of a racist, apartheid state with racism utterly baffles me.  At least, anyone who does so genuinely, rather than as part of a political manoeuvre.

Perhaps the people you know in Wavertree fall into the group who are both anti-Israel and antisemitic.  Don't make the mistake of extrapolating from that tiny fragment and drawing conclusions on that basis.

[bickster]

22 minutes ago, peterms said:

Some info here.

Of course, for those who wish to equate Jews with Israel

There’s plenty of Labour types who do this on a daily basis, this is a very common thing amongst the anti-Semitic comments made by Labour members. They themselves don’t appear to be able to separate them. I guess that must be down to the pressure the Israeli lobby is exerting on them. Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that Israel does not equate to Jewish and the Israeli lobby seems to want it to be viewed as such, Labour members seem to agree with them

[Chindie]

Regarding the Panorama farce.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Chindie