Xann Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Film crew catch Corbyn through some windows in party HQ. They see him getting in to a lift. Journo reports it as him hiding behind a pillar. Shameless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 15, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 15, 2019 Actually what is shameless is not including this corrective tweet sent not long after (both 5 hours old as I type) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 8 hours ago, TrentVilla said: On membership, you say its a problem for centrists and undoubtedly that is true. Yet you then say it is "just kind of tough, isn't it" which is frankly the crux of the problem with Labour. You say that like Labour don't need the centrists, like they are unimportant or a problem and that is exactly the issue that Labour have they simply don't recognise the importance of the centre ground voter, either within their party or beyond. That attitude to those in the middle is why many feel alienated from the party currently and why Corbyn has absolutely no chance of winning a majority in the HoC's. The claim that Labour 'don't recognise the importance of the centre ground voter' mistakes which 'centre' matters. The way elections are won are by winning the marginal voter in a majority of seats; that is definitionally true. But the marginal voter in seats may not have the same interests or concerns as the opinion columnist who identifies himself as a 'centrist'. In 2017, Labour won over 40% of the vote, including an absolute majority of working-age voters; while it wasn't enough, it wasn't far away from appealing the marginal voter in a majority of constituencies. Of course, the Tories weren't far away either, and it's quite possible that Corbyn will not get anywhere near as close next time. But it's common sense that a party that wins 40% of the vote is pretty close to winning the centre of the electorate. 8 hours ago, TrentVilla said: You say they need to persuade the party leadership that theirs is a better way or go elsewhere, how can you not see that this is the very issue Corbyn's Labour are doomed to fail. Not 'leadership' but 'membership', and what alternative is there to persuading the membership that they have a better or more effective agenda? In politics, people don't just give up power to people they don't agree with. If the Labour right want to take the leadership off Corbyn, or the wider left of the party, sooner or later they will have to win a leadership election. To do that they will need actual ideas, about the biggest issues affecting average Labout members. We live in a country with a poor and desperately unequal economy, failing public services, rising costs of living, and that had a long-standing public sector pay freeze. Unsurprisingly, a lot of Labour members currently see these issues as more important than the fundamentally human resources question of how quickly people get censured for antisemitic comments on Facebook, and for now enough of them think Corbyn's plans to tackle these issues are better than the plans of the Smiths, Milibands and Kendalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 7 hours ago, bickster said: Actually what is shameless is not including this corrective tweet sent not long after (both 5 hours old as I type) Doesn't delete and explain the deletion. Doesn't apologise. Uses the expression slipping off to retain a connotation of something sly or devious. Has the correction as a low-key one-liner compared to the prominence of the original. Do you not ses how this stuff works? And what it says about the mindset with which this reporter approaches his job? He's actively seeking out something negative, and will clearly continue to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, peterms said: Doesn't delete and explain the deletion. Doesn't apologise. Uses the expression slipping off to retain a connotation of something sly or devious. Has the correction as a low-key one-liner compared to the prominence of the original. Do you not ses how this stuff works? And what it says about the mindset with which this reporter approaches his job? He's actively seeking out something negative, and will clearly continue to do so. He was avoiding the cameras by going out of a different entrance because he didn't want to answer questions on anti-semitism, the only incorrect thing that was said was he was hiding behind a pillar when he in fact was in the lift It's in a thread with the original, do you understand how twitter works? Yep, Jeremy Cornyn wished to avoid answering journalists questions on antisemtism and journalists have reported this The journalist was actively seeking answers to questions which Jermey Corbyn didn't wish to answer. These are the actions of a man under seige because he's running away from answering questions (as he has been for quite some time). Hopefully the journalists will continue to seek answers 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, bickster said: He was avoiding the cameras by going out of a different entrance because he didn't want to answer questions on anti-semitism, the only incorrect thing that was said was he was hiding behind a pillar when he in fact was in the lift It's in a thread with the original, do you understand how twitter works? Yep, Jeremy Cornyn wished to avoid answering journalists questions on antisemtism and journalists have reported this The journalist was actively seeking answers to questions which Jermey Corbyn didn't wish to answer. These are the actions of a man under seige because he's running away from answering questions (as he has been for quite some time). Hopefully the journalists will continue to seek answers Looking at the journo's other tweets (is that how twitter works?) I think I see what happened. He thought there was a crisis meeting where Corbyn was addressing all staff about the antisemitism issue, an "emergency trip". That wasn't the case. Nevertheless, the coverage had been planned on that basis. Knowing they wouldn't get an interview in the street, the aim would have been to run one of the usual setups about someone walking past the cameras, the story being "refuses to answer questions". The tone and attitude of the coverage would have been with this in mind. It's like how they always camp outside his house, though they know very well he's not going to speak to them there. So when he saw Corbyn getting into the lift, presumably he was viewing the scene with the preconception that he would be hiding, dodging, being evasive, and interpreted things with that in mind. I don't suppose he deliberately lied about hiding behind a pillar, just convinced himself he'd seen something that fitted his prior view. It was always going to be a hostile presentation, wasn't it? But having made such a crass and ill-motivated error, it would have been reasonable to delete and explain, and apologise for the false impression given, rather than choose to say "slipping off", which is a phrase probably never before used of the act of entering a lift, and which is meant to have negative connotations. And when you say that "the only incorrect thing that was said was that he was hiding behind a pillar", that was literally the entire point of that tweet. As for him using another exit, it seems perfectly sensible for him and others not to allow themselves to be ambushed and placed in whatever frame the media wish to impose on them. That's pretty basic. When government ministers do it, they ensure the minders clear a path, or just don't let the press near in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 He didn't give a false impression, he did slip off, out of the back door so to speak, if he had a prior inmpression as you suggest, Corbyn's actions did indeed fit it, it just wasn't a pillar The centre point of the tweet was Corbyn avoiding the cameras or an incorrectly named inanimate object? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: The claim that Labour 'don't recognise the importance of the centre ground voter' mistakes which 'centre' matters. The way elections are won are by winning the marginal voter in a majority of seats; that is definitionally true. But the marginal voter in seats may not have the same interests or concerns as the opinion columnist who identifies himself as a 'centrist'. In 2017, Labour won over 40% of the vote, including an absolute majority of working-age voters; while it wasn't enough, it wasn't far away from appealing the marginal voter in a majority of constituencies. Of course, the Tories weren't far away either, and it's quite possible that Corbyn will not get anywhere near as close next time. But it's common sense that a party that wins 40% of the vote is pretty close to winning the centre of the electorate. Not 'leadership' but 'membership', and what alternative is there to persuading the membership that they have a better or more effective agenda? In politics, people don't just give up power to people they don't agree with. If the Labour right want to take the leadership off Corbyn, or the wider left of the party, sooner or later they will have to win a leadership election. To do that they will need actual ideas, about the biggest issues affecting average Labout members. We live in a country with a poor and desperately unequal economy, failing public services, rising costs of living, and that had a long-standing public sector pay freeze. Unsurprisingly, a lot of Labour members currently see these issues as more important than the fundamentally human resources question of how quickly people get censured for antisemitic comments on Facebook, and for now enough of them think Corbyn's plans to tackle these issues are better than the plans of the Smiths, Milibands and Kendalls. I'm aware how an election is won. I'm also aware of which centre matters, my point is Corbyn doesn't appeal to either and in my view he won't ever win an election. I think 2017 was as good as it gets for Corbyn and his Labour, I don't see any signs to suggest they will do better than that in a future GE. My view isn't so much that the right need to oust the left. It was more that the left need or needed to find a way of incorporating and building a consensus with those on the right of the party and a way of reaching those middle ground voters. I think Corbyn has categorically failed to do either of these things. Your position seems to be that the Labour right (I'd also argue centre) need to put up, challenge or get out. That in a nutshell is everything I think is wrong with the currrent Labour party and why Corbyn is and always will be a failure as its leader. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: It was more that the left need or needed to find a way of incorporating and building a consensus with those on the right of the party History says its not going to happen, ever. I absolutely agree with you but the left of the party find it hard to agree with each other most of the time let alone incorporate those closer to the centre ground 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 1 hour ago, TrentVilla said: I think 2017 was as good as it gets for Corbyn and his Labour ah yes that famous election victory .. who can forget it I think most have woken up to him and only the fan boys remain loyal .. but with the turmoil in the Tory party he's only one ̶p̶o̶l̶i̶c̶y̶ aspiration away from fooling people into voting for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 2 hours ago, bickster said: Hopefully the journalists will continue to seek answers. . They might want to look at who's backing the Semites? Just for balance. Murdoch's oil interests in the Golan Heights and the other media owners' interest in tax evasion obviously need to take a back seat to Corbyn's Joo hating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 23 hours ago, Chindie said: I believe when surveyed Labour support is shown to be less anti-Semitic than the Tories. Of course any anti-Semitism is too much, but still, I'd rather the figure was as low as possible. However the prevailing narrative will have the party slightly more anti-Semitic than Hitler. Sure, the tories have had a few cases of racist idiots, but by no means are they anywhere near to the amount of idiocy Labour have had since Corbyn took over. In this short period of time front benchers in Labour have been "suspended" indefinetly whilst remaining active for saying all manner of ill advised idiotic things, Naz Shah, Ken Livingstone, Hatton, Jackie Walker, Liverpool Wavertree, Chris Williamson etc etc. If you don't see it as a problem that people THAT close to the leader of Labour are expressing such idiotic sentiments then I don't know what to say. Local groups trying to oust Jewish MP's based on "grassroot" support, allowing holocaust deniers to talk at conferences etc shows one thing. It shows that JC is a naive old fool who doesn't understand what antisemitism is. Israel is a shitty nationalistic regime - it has nothing to do with Luciana Berger getting pushed out of her local party due to bigots threatening her from within her own party. By associating himself with such people JC is looking weaker and more pathetic as each day passes. Why was Ken Livingstone left within the party for so long, why was Naz Shah allowed to come back after liking extreme right wing propaganda pictures? Why was Hatton and Williamson let back in and then resuspended? If Labour can't be more active in getting rid of this sort of behaviour they don't need "the tory rag" to paint them as antisemitic, they are doing a fine job of that themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Sure, the tories have had a few cases of racist idiots, but by no means are they anywhere near to the amount of idiocy Labour have had since Corbyn took over Oh, the tories are probably worse in terms of the amount of (or percentage of) racist numbnuts amongst their members and followers. Ask Baroness Warsi. And the type of approach that they did for the London Mayor election where Zak Goldsmith went for Sadiq Khan was vile. They are as bad or worse than Labour. And they know it. The difference with Labour is maybe 5 fold. Firstly, they sell themselves as an explicitly anti-racism, minority supporting party. Secondly they have been uniquely incompetent at addressing the problem they have. Thirdly, they have had a denial and deflection problem - whataboutery and claims that it's all a media plot or a tory plot or Zionists Fourthly they have a victim blaming problem - shooting the messenger, don't listen to the message, to the complaint, Fifthly they have an ongoing transparency problem. Secrecy and obfuscation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 32 minutes ago, Xann said: . They might want to look at who's backing the Semites? Just for balance. Murdoch's oil interests in the Golan Heights and the other media owners' interest in tax evasion obviously need to take a back seat to Corbyn's Joo hating. I agree with everything you say there but it's not really relevant to the antisemitism in the Labour Party. Yes Israel is a bad actor, I strongly agree, Labour also has an antisemitism problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Just now, bickster said: ...but it's not really relevant to the antisemitism in the Labour Party... Antisemitism in the Labour Party is pretty small peanuts compared to other shit going down here and abroad. They're not even in power FFS. Yet front page after front page. It's a narrative. We can see where the Brexit voters went wrong with lapping up the erroneous bullshit, because it was what they wanted to believe. This campaign is for a different set of voters. A bit brighter, so can't go for all out lies. Distraction it is. Working a treat it seems 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, Xann said: Antisemitism in the Labour Party is pretty small peanuts It really isn't, the party of fairness and equality cannot use criticism of others hate crimes as a weapon until it puts it's own house in order Corbyn tweeted something this morning about Trumps racism towards the 4 congresswoemen of colour and Hunt & Johnson not being able to criticize Trump because they want a No Deal trade Deal, it's fair comment but you still find yourself going but but... put your own house in order, it has a huge impact Quote Distraction it is. Working a treat it seems Tbh I find that quite shamefull, its equivalent to saying the problem doesn't exist when it clearly does 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Just now, bickster said: It really isn't We will have to agree to differ. The country being mugged by Brexit - It's backers with power being tax cheats and disaster capitalists, war in the Middle East, Israel trying to finish off Lebanon, Putin backing divisive elements in the West (Banks/Farage/Trump), the Thwaite glacier creaking, public services being run into the ground so they can be sold to chums and the Yanks. This is front page news, or rather, it isn't. Back to Joo hating Labour everyone. This is why I started the Control thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 **** complicit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: **** complicit. Not a surprise though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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