The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[StefanAVFC]

No Deal was not an option then.

A Labour MP stating 'we must leave by any means' does not follow a 'people first' approach. It will decimate her constituents. It's her responsibility to do what's best for them, not try to keep her job.

[VILLAMARV]

59 minutes ago, Xann said:

Antisemitism in the Labour Party is pretty small peanuts compared to other shit going down here and abroad. They're not even in power FFS.

Yet front page after front page.

It's a narrative.

We can see where the Brexit voters went wrong with lapping up the erroneous bullshit, because it was what they wanted to believe.

This campaign is for a different set of voters. A bit brighter, so can't go for all out lies. Distraction it is. 

Working a treat it seems

While this may be a little clumsily worded in parts I have to say I agree 100%. I don't find it shameful that you feel people saying things over here isn't as bad as people being slaughtered in Apartheid driven human camps which are not tantamount to, but which are actual torture camps in my book, somewhere else.

People that report on this get their companies shut down by western governments. Whereas the other story gets prominence and a constant place in the news cycle

Put it like this if people are more enraged by racism than by torture and state sponsored murder it's working a treat. However bitter a taste that may leave in any reasonable person's mouth.

[desensitized43]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

No Deal was not an option then.

A Labour MP stating 'we must leave by any means' does not follow a 'people first' approach. It will decimate her constituents. It's her responsibility to do what's best for them, not try to keep her job.

I always quote this to my misguided leave-supporting friends who say that their MP should be enacting the "will of the people". It's an MP's job to represent the interests of their constituents, not be a mouith-piece for them. It's a key difference.

Those who don't like the way their MP is acting are free to vote them out at the next election and if they feel they can do a better job, stand themselves. It's not hard, is it?

[StefanAVFC]

2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

**** complicit.

voted against TM's deal 3 times as it does nothing to protect rights and is willing to back No Deal which protects no one.

Self-serving arsehole. **** off.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

if people are more enraged by racism than by torture and state sponsored murder it's working a treat.

They're not though, are they?

Maybe not speaking of you or Dave in this reply, but generqally there are plenty of folk who can seperate their utter contempt and distaste for the actions of Israel's government and the IDF from some kind of twisted desire to seek out Jewish people wherever and somehow hold them to account, blame them, pick on them and victimise them as somehow responsible or complicit in the actions of an overseas Gov't and it's violent security forces. Sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians doesn't have to and shouldn't lead to twisted hatred of Jews generally, and that seems to have happened to a chunk of Corbynite/far left whoppers who have become more and more emboldened to spew their bile due to the inaction/ineffectivenss of Catweazle and his chums in actually putting a stop to that bile.

And none of that, not one bit of it is feeling or saying what those anti-semitic whoppers, idiotic deniers and conspiracy theorists  do is remotely as bad as soldiers shooting children and nurses and protestors in Palestine, or the theft of Palestinians land, or the discrimination and victimisation the Palestians suffer at the hands of Israel's authorties. And nor is it as bad as the murders and executions of Palestinians by Hamas, or the missiles, suicide bombings and all the rest of it.

There are parts of the Labour party that are more cross and angry about people citing and maiking complaints of instances of anti-semitism than they are about the actual anti-semitism. According to these, the people responsible are:

"no one - it's all made up, The BBC, Israel, Jews, Rupert Murdoch, Zionists, Disgruntled former employees with a grudge, the tories, Tom Watson, Margaret Hodge, Blairites, The US, whistelblowers...the media..."

people not responsible - "anti-semitic labour party members, his magicness the leader of the labour party saint Jeremy or any of his accolytes, let them back in"

 

[ml1dch]

52 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

voted against TM's deal 3 times as it does nothing to protect rights and is willing to back No Deal which protects no one.

Self-serving arsehole. **** off.

Joining James Cleverley on the list of "cruel jokes played on MPs by the Gods of nominative determinism"

[blandy]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

Self-serving arsehole. **** off.

She's done some absolutely fantastic stuff on child protection and such like. I take your point re what she said on Brexit, but she's one of the good ones.

[StefanAVFC]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

She's done some absolutely fantastic stuff on child protection and such like. I take your point re what she said on Brexit, but she's one of the good ones.

All for nothing if she values political survivalism and ideology over protecting people's rights.

[Xann]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

They're not though, are they?

You've taken on board the mantra of the right wing, tax exile, billionaire press barons.

Worse still, you're reciting it on a public forum.

The bastards will be overjoyed.

 

 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

All for nothing if she values political survivalism and ideology over protecting people's rights.

It's not though. If she was known for working on the economy or something, then yes - because Brexit will harm that, but protecting children from grooming gangs, Brexit or no Brexit, that's a wholly good thing. Yes, we think she's wrong on Brexit, with what she's said, but frankly if she stays MP for Rotherham, then that's fine by me, even with Brevity stupidity.

[blandy]

Just now, Xann said:

You've taken on board the mantra of the right wing, tax exile, billionaire press barons.

Worse still, you're reciting it on a public forum.

The bastards will be overjoyed.

They won't give a damn that I think Labour's problem with anti-semitism is real.

Me and Emily Thornbury, and even that wossisname Jezza apparently.

Quote

The shadow foreign secretary, Emily Thornberry, said that Labour should not be “going for” former officials who blew the whistle on how it handled antisemitism in the party, and called on Mr Corbyn to invite the Equality and Human Rights Commission in to help the party improve its systems for handling allegations.“Nobody can pretend that there isn’t an ongoing problem within the Labour Party about antisemitism, about our processes for dealing with it.”

Quote

 Mr Corbyn said anyone who denies that anti-Semitism is "surfacing" in the party is "clearly actually wrong and contributing to the problem". 

"I'm sorry for the hurt that's been caused to many Jewish people," he said. 

"We have been too slow in processing disciplinary cases of, mostly online, anti-Semitic abuse by party members. We're acting to speed this process up."

But playing your game (I don't actually mean it any more than I hope you don't.)

Quote

You've taken on board the mantra of the hard left, the Chris Williamson opportunists, the Livingston idiots and the excusers and apologists for anti-semitism.

Worse still, you're reciting it on a public forum.

The bastards will be overjoyed.

We just see things on this very differently, which is fair enough, different perspectives and all that.

[Xann]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This has been one of the points all along. The bloke that TALKS to factions that like a bomb and put thousands of his own money into keeping youth facilities open in Islington (when he wasn't famous), wasn't going to be building gas chambers when he got into No10. His track record suggests he's not big on intolerence, and I'd expect him to start rooting out hate in his own party when the ship steadied. 

Not been allowed to steady though, has it?

[blandy]

11 minutes ago, Xann said:

Not been allowed to steady though, has it?

No, it hasn't. You're right. There's no doubt that there's a problem. There's no doubt that the Labour party hasn't responded well to the spotlight (often hostile, as you say) and hasn't done enough to sort out their problem. My problem with "the bloke" isn't primarily that "ooh he's a raging jew hater"  - he isn't. He's associated himself with plenty f them, mind, but he's more of the (as the bad "joke" goes) someone who "doesn't hate jews more than strictly necessary"  - to me he's extremely reticent to call out anti-semitism - whether when confronted with it, blatantly in full red-blooded tooth and claw on Iranian TV, or less blatantly overtly amongst various bell ends in the UK Labour movement.

But my main problem is that they've been massively ineffective in dealing with it, when given the media spotlight, the hundreds of Labour MPs, the Jewish Labour movement and so on calling for genuine effective action, such a thing clearly hasn't happened. Instead we've had a series of terrible steps, from deflection, whataboutery, victim blaming and the rest. There are signs they are starting to get their act lined up to actually dealing with it, but there's been  series of resignations of members, peers, MPs and so on, plus the EHRC investigation to get them to realise they need to sort it out properly. The Williamson and Livingstone examples are terrible. In, out, back in, no not back in....

And all the while this has been going on, their enemies have been able to make hay out of it. It's been inept, an absolute example of how not to deal with a genuine problem. It's a black mark against what should be an example of how a party can stand up for minorities.

[peterms]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

But my main problem is that they've been massively ineffective in dealing with it, when given the media spotlight, the hundreds of Labour MPs, the Jewish Labour movement and so on calling for genuine effective action, such a thing clearly hasn't happened.

I'm really not sure whether you see this or not, but the neme of the game on this particular issue has been to make demands which would be difficult or impossible for Corbyn and his supporters to accept without trashing an important part of their world view and ethical position regarding Palestine, at which point the attacks would of course turn to that instead.  We already see attacks on the "hypocrisy" of the party using NDAs which were instituted by the previous regime, and which weren't reported or made a fuss of for years, but which seem like another stick to beat the current leadership with.  That's a very small example of the kind of thing that lies in wait.

It's not the case, and it was never the case, that the AS issue could be "dealt with" by caving in to demands made, whether accepting the widest possible definition of AS,  or something else.  That was the fallacy of the Watson position.  It can't be simply neutralised; that's the point.  When ground is given, new demands emerge.

The attack is on two grounds.  First, for those pushing Israeli interests specifically, the position on Palestine.  This is treated in a slightly circumspect way, because calling crudely for Corbyn to support a racist, apartheid state would be a bit too overt, so it's played instead as something about alienating the Jewish community (like it's one homogeneic community).  And changing his view on this would be a gift to his attackers, quite apart from being something he's not going to do anyway.

The second is because he's too left wing, and might actually do something which affects people in power, or discredit the Blairites and shift the party leftwards for a generation.  This is more of interest to the right wing of the party and the dominant forces in the media, who see this as an existential threat, as well as those among the wealthy and powerful who might be inconvenienced in some way..

Both are linked, of course, and also actively involved in constructing narratives are the US, the UK intelligence services via the Integrity Initiative, obviously the media, and so on.

In that context, when the name of the game is constantly launching new attacks, placing continual stories about some aspect of the issue to take up time and energy responding, to expect that "dealing with it" is something which is achievable and which anyone with a bit of nous and a spark of commitment could have done two years back, is severely misguided.

It's not going to go away, unless a tastier issue presents itself.  It is unresponsive to facts or reason, negotiation, compromise or anything else.  It is all about ceaseless repetition, slurs, smears, hints, and outright lies.  The sheer breadth and volume of the assault makes it impossible to manage.

That's the aim.  That's the tactic.  It's effective.

[Chindie]

The anti-Semitism farce is just the most effective of the series of jabbing attacks that have been pushed by the same faces for years. It's the one that got the most traction, and it's been the one that kept being pushed and morphing.

A while back it was all about the lack of acceptance of a particular definition of anti-Semitism (which the Tories hadn't done either). At other times it's been nudge nudge wink wink Corbyn's actually a real hater of the Jews, despite his record of supporting Jewish causes. Now it's mostly nudge nudge wink wink he just doesn't get it and he's been covering up how anti-semetic the party is and needs to go.

And all the 'leading lights' of the campaign are all questionable on their motivation. Politicians that just hate Corbyn and will tie their colours to any mast that'll do him in. Israeli affiliates and lobbyists. Those terrified of a left wing party. Etc etc.

This doesn't mean there are not anti-Semitic Labour members. There undoubtedly is. Just as there are anti-Semitic Tories, Villa fans, media personalities and so on. It's the Tigers in Norway thing. Unfortunately there's people that hate Jewish people in society so they infect everywhere. And any is too many. But this does not mean the Labour party is uniquely anti-Semitic by any stretch and to insinuate it's institutionally so is absurd.

But it's all in bad faith. It'll work eventually. Though perhaps the elements of the party that are licking their lips at the prospect of a leadership bid might want to think about whether the tar and feather job they're indulging is going turn remarkably disappear when Corbyn's faction falls. I don't think the right is going to let it go so soon, especially when it's been seen to be such a good attack. So good it's appearing across the pond.

And I say all that as a largely dispassionate viewer. I don't give a **** about Corbyn, he doesn't have my vote and likely never will. He could go tomorrow and I don't care. He's a massively flawed leader. I do care about a consideration of justice and righteousness though, and this is neither. Underhand and dirty tactics are things I don't like.

[blandy]

9 hours ago, peterms said:

I'm really not sure whether you see this or not, but the neme of the game on this particular issue has been to make demands which would be difficult or impossible for Corbyn and his supporters to accept without trashing an important part of their world view and ethical position regarding Palestine, at which point the attacks would of course turn to that instead.  We already see attacks on the "hypocrisy" of the party using NDAs which were instituted by the previous regime, and which weren't reported or made a fuss of for years, but which seem like another stick to beat the current leadership with.  That's a very small example of the kind of thing that lies in wait....impossible to manage.

Not. Very much not. Completely, categorically not. I think what you write is how Corbynites perhaps see it, so that’s interesting, though, at least. But regardless, the kind of under siege, bunker mentality you portray is one that is wholly unfit for any party, project or leader which wants to run the country.

[HanoiVillan]

On 16/07/2019 at 09:29, TrentVilla said:

I'm aware how an election is won. I'm also aware of which centre matters, my point is Corbyn doesn't appeal to either and in my view he won't ever win an election.

I think 2017 was as good as it gets for Corbyn and his Labour, I don't see any signs to suggest they will do better than that in a future GE.

My view isn't so much that the right need to oust the left. It was more that the left need or needed to find a way of incorporating and building a consensus with those on the right of the party and a way of reaching those middle ground voters. I think Corbyn has categorically failed to do either of these things. Your position seems to be that the Labour right (I'd also argue centre) need to put up, challenge or get out. That in a nutshell is everything I think is wrong with the currrent Labour party and why Corbyn is and always will be a failure as its leader.

There is no consensus to be built. The right of the party have been attempting to oust Corbyn from literally the minute he was elected, and apart from a brief period after the election they largely haven't stopped since. That's understandable, since there is more ideological variety in the Labour party than there is in the Conservatives, and traditionally both sides have fought hard for control of the party. Back in the 1990's, deselections of left-wing MP's were not considered an outrage by the right of the party. Back in the 2000's, people on the right of the party didn't have any more tolerance for dissent than the left of the party do today, as we might recall if we travel back to 2005:

'The rebels turned up, spoke, and called for Tony Blair to stand down. They were jeered, booed and hissed and some of their speeches could barely be heard in a packed Commons Committee Room 14. 

There was an inevitable, stage-managed show of support for the Prime Minister. There always is. But there was also genuine anger directed at the dissidents who had gone public with their demands for Mr Blair to go. 

After the arch-rebel Bob Marshall-Andrews called on the Prime Minister to resign sooner rather than later, Claire Curtis-Thomas, the MP for Crosby, looked him in the eye and said the dissidents should "find another party". She was cheered to the rafters.'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/for-once-the-paper-tiger-backbenchers-show-claws-490411.html

This is just politics. You're right that I have more sympathy for the left of the party, and maybe you have more sympathy for the right (or maybe you don't), but my comments here over the last few days are not me attempting to say what is 'right and wrong' or 'good and bad'. I'm just stating what I see as a description of reality, which is that moaning about Corbyn's leadership is only a small and insufficient part of what they [centrists] need to do to replace him. They will need to both a] force him into a leadership contest through manoeuvrings in the PLP, which shouldn't be hard, but they do seem to be gun-shy of, and b] appeal to the electorate of Labour party members that they actually have, not the electorate that they wish they have. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by HanoiVillan

[peterms]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

the kind of under siege, bunker mentality you portray is one that is wholly unfit for any party, project or leader which wants to run the country.

If you're under siege, as the Labour leadership undeniably is, it is as well to recognise the fact.  The question then is whether the response is purely defensive, trying to fend off the continual attacks, or whether you try to shift the focus to other and more important issues.  Of course whenever attention shifts to something like the economy, the health service or whatever, and especially whenever Labour seem to be doing better in polling, then a new wave of attacks emerges to try to keep them on the back foot.

A bunker mentality would be to retreat into defending on the ground of choice of your opponent.  I don't see the leadership as wishing to do that, though it's very clear their opponents wish to have them do so, and that the media are very keen to collude in doing so.

[Chindie]

Quote

FROM THE MOMENT Jeremy Corbyn emerged as leader of the Labour Party a barrage of allegations of antisemitism was levelled at him and the party. These allegations have tarnished the party’s image and deflected it from promoting its core programme of anti-austerity and redistribution of wealth.

Representing several hundred Jewish members of the party, Jewish Voice for Labour from the very start challenged the existence of this antisemitic wave. Never denying for a moment the existence of serious, isolated expressions of antisemitism, none of us – many with decades of party membership - experienced anything at all resembling such undercurrents. Why was Labour singled out for such interrogation, and was antisemitism really more prevalent in the party than elsewhere?

The wave of allegations swamped the party machinery. After Jennie Formby became General Secretary, the implementation of some of the Chakrabarti recommendations and expansion of staffing levels, it is clear that this wave of reported allegations is being managed promptly, with only 24 cases outstanding.

And a clear picture has finally emerged. Jennie Formby’s data confirms that the grounds for the attacks on Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have indeed been grossly exaggerated, and in some cases fabricated. Over the last ten months there were: » 1,106 referrals of antisemitism allegations; » 433 of these had nothing to do with party members, leaving 673 to be investigated; » 220 of these were dismissed entirely for lack of evidence; » this left 453 cases; » 453 is 0.08% of the party’s 540,000 members – that’s about 1/12th of 1%; » 96 of these resulted in suspensions - that’s 0.01%, or 1/100th of 1% of members; » there were twelve expulsions – that’s 0.002%, or 1/500th of 1% of members!

By no stretch of the imagination can a 0.08% incidence support the claim of a ‘”rampant problem in Labour”. Of course, even one case of antisemitism is one too many. But these are vanishingly small statistics, especially when you consider that 2-5% of the general population are considered to be antisemitic.

This is not a wave, it is not even a ripple. In nautical terms it’s almost a dead flat calm.

...

Margaret Hodge MP was informed by Jennie Formby that of the 200 dossiers of cases of antisemitism she had submitted, only 20 were found to be by Labour Party members. In other words, her allegations of antisemitism in the party had been exaggerated tenfold. And single handedly she accounted for approaching one fifth of all referrals.

Headlines proclaiming there was “no safe place for Jews in Corbyn’s Labour”, or that Labour needed, in the words of Marie van de Zyl, when vice-president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, to “drain the cesspit of antisemitism”, have been shown to be contradicted by the evidence.

When the Shami Chakrabarti inquiry was presented we learned that there was no evidence of widespread antisemitism in Labour, but there were some offensive comments often borne out of ignorance. In cases such as these 146 written warnings were issued.

If the facts are at such odds with the accounts of leading politicians and mainstream media, there can be only one explanation – these accounts are driven by ulterior political agendas. Other forms of racism, for which manifestations in the UK are 70 times more prevalent than those for antisemitism, barely get a mention. At the last election Labour fell short of becoming the government by a few percentage points. The next election is predicted to be as close. The damage to the party inflicted by the allegations of antisemitism is calculated to impact on this tipping point – to keep the party out of office.

Labour Briefing

[Chindie]

Quote

In the face of a near three-year political and media campaign alleging rampant and institutional antisemitism in the Labour Party – especially on the left – we present here hard statistical evidence that the allegation is wildly exaggerated or based on misinformation.   The relevant data we present below has been almost completely ignored in media reporting and commentary and the findings rarely if ever referred to, or reflected upon.

We do not downplay anti-Jewish prejudice, which exists across the political spectrum and in all parts of society.   However the statistics, some from Jewish and pro-Israeli groups, show that other ethnic minorities (rather than Jewish people) face the brunt of British prejudice, and moreover, that the far right is home to the highest levels of prejudice against all minorities, including Jews, and to most perpetrators of religious hate crimes.

A smear campaign of McCarthyite proportions has been taken up unquestioningly by the mainstream media, including the BBC and even the notionally left-supporting Guardian, and has been enthusiastically supported by Corbyn’s opponents in his own and other parties.  The effect has been to intimidate and silence critics of Israel and its policies towards the Palestinians, to severely curtail free speech and comment on the issue, and to close down public debate and rights of assembly.

In a word, broadcast commentators, columnists and news reporters now take constant media claims about rampant left-wing antisemitism as a fact, rather than as unproven and unsourced allegations, preventing the United Kingdom from rationally debating the issues either of Israel/Palestine or the dangers of antisemitism and racism themselves.

This tsunami of false allegations also diverts attention from a more potent threat to racial minorities, including Jews: the global resurgence of right-wing populism.

Behind this spurious antisemitism campaign we see a coalition of interest groups which, for various reasons, are intent on:

* creating a minefield for would-be critics of Israel and supporters, and;

* unseating Jeremy Corbyn by fair means or foul, and ensuring that he never becomes Prime Minister.

We, the authors, have varying political affiliations, but all applaud Corbyn’s unequivocal stand for Palestinian rights, and do not want to see Corbyn, or any other PM candidate, brought down by a very British media-orchestrated coup.

These antisemitism smears are an (outstanding) example of wider media abuse in the UK, including inaccurate coverage of immigration, Brexit, war in Iraq and other matters.  Where facts are not checked, evidence is ignored and poor reporting lead us to make poor political choices across the board.  This affects all our futures.  So it is time to focus on the evidence and bring this appalling situation to an end.

...

Jewish Voice for Labour