blandy Posted February 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: You can obviously see the problem with saying 'May hasn't changed a thing' as if that's Labour's fault I'm sure. It turns out, Labour aren't actually the government. May's pig headed intransigence is not Labour's fault. I haven't said that, any more than I blame Corbyn's pig headed intransigence on the tories. When I said Corbyn was co-operating with the tories you said it was all untrue, and then cited Corbyn co-operating with the tories as part of your response. I thought that worth a mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: 100% bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 These seven should have done this a while ago as should a number of others who are right of centre in their views and now find themselves in a left wing party. There should be by elections as the majority of people vote on party lines not for the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, blandy said: On the part in italics - I take it you believe in the tooth fairy If there is one core requirement in politics, it is working constructively with people you disagree with. Where people try to do that, they gain respect, and often gain support as well, or at least reduce opposition, which in counting votes is equally useful. And the tooth fairy's always been good to me, so you can leave her out of it. 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Berger's case is different. She is the victim. She's the victim of abuse, like Abbott and others. She has cynically tried to attribute responsibility for this to Corbyn, in a way which considerably reduces the sympathy people would otherwise have had for her. She also seems to be one of the group of people who see political parties as a vehicle for their own advancement, rather than a collective effort towards something rather bigger. This is also a pretty unappealing quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Well even when campaigning for election they couldn't manage to promote one positive policy. I suppose I quite like the organ donor opt out thing. Throw enough shit at a wall and some will stick I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 18, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: Woah. So hang on, are you saying that you, personally, agree that 'a soft Leave is what needs to happen'? Since 'that's where the majority lies' (which appears to be true, I agree)? If so, what exactly can Labour have done differently, since the party conference last year, to achieve that target? Because that is the target, hyperbole aside. I'm not talking about my Brexit thoughts. I'm not in parliament. I'm talking about my perception of what the majority of MPs feel and the context of them not acting to get what they think needs to happen, in their judgement. Me personally, I'd pull A50. Cheating and fraud and lies and interference in the first ref make it invalid afaiac. I'd then have a proper invest of the criminality (like Mueller) , disqualify the likes of Johnson, Bank's, Farage , Gove and any other effwits (if found to have done wrong) from holding posts. Then I'd change the parliamentary system to one of PR and get a written constitution, After dinner I'd reform the HoL and set up more local powers for regions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, blandy said: May's pig headed intransigence is not Labour's fault. I haven't said that, any more than I blame Corbyn's pig headed intransigence on the tories. When I said Corbyn was co-operating with the tories you said it was all untrue, and then cited Corbyn co-operating with the tories as part of your response. I thought that worth a mention. That's the thing, isn't it, he didn't co-operate with them because they didn't want to. If we were now in an alternate universe where May had softened her red lines, I would be here giving some minor degree of praise to her for coming to her senses, and I wouldn't be denying that Corbyn is co-operating with the Tories. Because in that world they would be co-operating, to everyone's benefit. Sadly that's not where we are. He isn't co-operating with the move towards a No Deal Brexit, which is what your post implied, 'because ideally the nastier Brexit is, the more "people will hate the tories and let me have a go"'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 18, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2019 Cringing so hard my shoulder blades are above my eyebrows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: Well even when campaigning for election they couldn't manage to promote one positive policy. I suppose I quite like the organ donor opt out thing. Throw enough shit at a wall and some will stick I guess. I was more surprised at the 100% figure considering the accusations that May stole many of Red Ed's policies ... I suspect you post was more an emotive 100% rather than an actual 100% ? tbf I don't know all of Labours policies ... sorry I forget they are called aspirations nowadays ... but I'd imagine i'd be against quite a majority of them , maybe even 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: I was more surprised at the 100% figure considering the accusations that May stole many of Red Ed's policies ... I suspect you post was more an emotive 100% rather than an actual 100% ? tbf I don't know all of Labours policies ... sorry I forget they are called aspirations nowadays ... but I'd imagine i'd be against quite a majority of them , maybe even 100% Well yeah, it wasn't completely absolute it was in response to what Blandy said: "I like about half of Labour's policies, am OK with another bunch and thing about 25% or so are utterly ridiculous. Which is actually not that bad a hit rate. The Tories are far worse as a party (for me) as I agree with almost nothing and hate pretty much the rest of their policies." Although I guess he said "almost nothing" too. So we'll go with 2% 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 17 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: There should be by elections as the majority of people vote on party lines not for the individual. I’m not sure I agree with that Mark. Maybe in local elections, but not at GE level? If there were to be a GE tomorrow, Labour would lose on personality, not policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Wainy316 said: Well yeah, it wasn't completely absolute it was in response to what Blandy said: "I like about half of Labour's policies, am OK with another bunch and thing about 25% or so are utterly ridiculous. Which is actually not that bad a hit rate. The Tories are far worse as a party (for me) as I agree with almost nothing and hate pretty much the rest of their policies." Although I guess he said "almost nothing" too. So we'll go with 2% so you (and blandy) haven't completely ruled out voting Tory then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Just now, wazzap24 said: I’m not sure I agree with that Mark. Maybe in local elections, but not at GE level? If there were to be a GE tomorrow, Labour would lose on personality, not policy. Theressa May begs to differ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, Chindie said: Cringing so hard my shoulder blades are above my eyebrows. Very hard to 'out-cringe' Ash Sarkar but she certainly succeeded here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, wazzap24 said: I’m not sure I agree with that Mark. Maybe in local elections, but not at GE level? If there were to be a GE tomorrow, Labour would lose on personality, not policy. Well they stood under Corbyn's leadership on a Labour manifesto. They clearly aren't in tune with either of those so by elections should be called. Be interesting to see how they would fare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: so you (and blandy) haven't completely ruled out voting Tory then If they somehow became the antithesis of the very word 'Conservative' then I could be swayed. Edited February 18, 2019 by Wainy316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: Well they stood under Corbyn's leadership on a Labour manifesto. They clearly aren't in tune with either of those so by elections should be called. Be interesting to see how they would fare. I just meant it more as a general point tbh. I think saying people vote for policy over personality is giving our electorate far too much credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 18, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, markavfc40 said: Well they stood under Corbyn's leadership on a Labour manifesto. They clearly aren't in tune with either of those so by elections should be called. Be interesting to see how they would fare. The rumoured 'plan' is that they will stand in marginals at the next election (assuming the group lasts that long). I think at least some of them know they got in based on the rosette they wore, and not who they are (especially Chukka, who seems to stand for whatever way the wind is blowing if it's good for him). A lot of talk of them not setting up a party as well. They've established a company. Which makes them exempt from party donation rules. Hmm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, wazzap24 said: I just meant it more as a general point tbh. I think saying people vote for policy over personality is giving our electorate far too much credit. The counterpoint to that is that arguing that the personality they vote for is their local candidate is also frequently inaccurate. I'm probably more interested in politics than 95% of the electorate, and I couldn't even tell you what James Morris (Con, Halesowen & Rowley Regis) looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, wazzap24 said: I just meant it more as a general point tbh. I think saying people vote for policy over personality is giving our electorate far too much credit. weren't many labour candidates in the last GE going out of their way to distance themselves from Corbyn ? tbh I'm not sure who delivered the labour votes last time out , obviously the Corbyn fan boys will say it was all down to him , but I think it just simply came down to a two party race Tory v Labour and people voted where they traditionally voted (after their brief flirt with UKIP ) or where they thought the best chance of stopping candidate X from winning was 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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