Paul Lambert

[AshVilla]

Our defence was good under McLeish as well

[bobzy]

 

 

 

 

 

Should have had Grealish or Weimann or Robinson on earlier, as Benteke, Agbonlahor and Nzogbia were all terrible.

But as far as Lambert's responsibility for the loss is concerned, Lambert cannot be expected to legislate for the stupidity of a player.

I'm certain Lambert did not give Richardson instructions to try and break someones leg, but

- He picked him ahead of our current top scorer and highest in assists (Wiemann)

- He picked him for a derby

- He had all week with the players to get them playing the way he wanted

so Lambert remains responsible. If he isn't - then exactly what does he manage?

Either that Richardson sending off was purely and simply down to inept and utterly clueless management by the manager or Lambert's dropped the controller. It does happen occasionally. I've played enough FIFA to know.

So.... when a player does something on the pitch that is bad/poor/stupid - it's NOT Lambert's responsibility? Does he get the credit when they do something good?

If he gets one and not the other - why? If he get's neither - what does he do, exactly?

Let me re-iterate what I said previously: Whatever happens on the pitch, Lambert remains responsible.

No, you're just wrong.

If a player gets sent off, that isn't down to Lambert. If a player scores a 30 yard wonder strike, that isn't down to Lambert. It's pretty **** obvious that this is the case, too.

So he gets no credit for the 3 points at palace?

 

 

lol, what?

[Keyblade]

I guess he means that moment of brilliance from Benteke was out of Lambert's control, so we can't give him credit for that...or something.

[DCJonah]

I guess he means that moment of brilliance from Benteke was out of Lambert's control, so we can't give him credit for that...or something.

I'm just throwing it out there, wouldn't say I entirely agree with it. But if you're just going to focus on one moment from a player for the result then surely that has to be taken into account. The palace game was a shocking performance won thanks to a moment of benteke genius. Does Lambert get the credit?

I think you have to take a few things into account not just one moment of madness or one moment of quality from a single player when judging the manager.

[Keyblade]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the situations are entirely equivalent. For one, Lambert is the one who scouted Benteke for his ability and unearthed his potential. He also put him in the starting lineup specifically to score goals, and use this talent. So when Benteke does just that, I think Lambert is entitled to some credit. Whereas Richardson did something Lambert clearly did not legislate for as he probably expects his players wouldn't do something so stupid.

[choffer]

Our defence was good under McLeish as well

 

That's because we had 11 players doing nothing but defending

Edited December 16, 2014 by choffer

[paulfromsutton]

It's all lamberts fault there I saved thousands of posts

[ozvillafan]

It's all lamberts fault there I saved thousands of posts

 

It's all Lerner's fault. There, I saved the opposing 1000's of posts.

[pacbuddies]

 

 

We would have to increase our goal scoring to just over 1.22 goals per game just to equal McLeish's poor return of 37 goals scored in 2011/12.

 

 

 

Does it even matter if we won 1-0 all the time?

 

Obviously, we won't and, obviously, goal scoring is a problem - but comparing it back to another season (and randomly 2011/12 at that, huh?) is pointless in isolation.

 

I was comparing back to the lowest number of goals we have scored in a season in the last 10 years which happens to be 2011/12. What is wrong with that? If I had compared it to the highest (being 71 in 2007/08) would you have found an excuse to have a pop at that too?

[Keyblade]

For some perspective, Palace finished last season in a comfortable 11th on 45 points scoring only 33 goals in 38 games and a -15 goal difference. I do think we need to score more, but I think our defence is a bigger priority as it is a better platform to build from. In Lambert's first season we were scoring a lot, but our defence was terrible and that just wasn't sustainable. It's easier to improve our attack from a good defensive position than to improve our weak defence while maintaining our previous style. I'm hoping to see Lambert move towards some middle ground this season.

[pacbuddies]

For some perspective, Palace finished last season in a comfortable 11th on 45 points scoring only 33 goals in 38 games and a -15 goal difference. I do think we need to score more, but I think our defence is a bigger priority as it is a better platform to build from. In Lambert's first season we were scoring a lot, but our defence was terrible and that just wasn't sustainable. It's easier to improve our attack from a good defensive position than to improve our weak defence while maintaining our previous style. I'm hoping to see Lambert move towards some middle ground this season.

33 goals scored is quite low and I think we will need a few more but hence why my original post mentioned more than trebling our current amount scored in the next 22 games.

[Isa]

 

Well since the manager picked the player then he's obviously responsible for the injury and loss of confidence by extension, just as he is for everything else that takes place on the pitch regardless of whether or not they were under his control.

So by the same token, Lambert was responsible for Benteke's hip injury last season?

[Keyblade]

That was supposed to be sarcasm but it actually sounds pretty convincingly serious

[Isa]

That was supposed to be sarcasm but it actually sounds pretty convincingly serious

Damn sarcasm detector!

[bobzy]

 

 

 

We would have to increase our goal scoring to just over 1.22 goals per game just to equal McLeish's poor return of 37 goals scored in 2011/12.

 

 

 

Does it even matter if we won 1-0 all the time?

 

Obviously, we won't and, obviously, goal scoring is a problem - but comparing it back to another season (and randomly 2011/12 at that, huh?) is pointless in isolation.

 

I was comparing back to the lowest number of goals we have scored in a season in the last 10 years which happens to be 2011/12. What is wrong with that? If I had compared it to the highest (being 71 in 2007/08) would you have found an excuse to have a pop at that too?

 

 

Not a pop - just saying that it doesn't mean much in isolation.  Our goal scoring is a problem, sure, but I wouldn't be fussed if we scored the lowest amount of goals in the history of an Aston Villa season if we won plenty of games 1-0.

 

Didn't realise the 2011/12 season was our lowest over the last 10 years though, fair comparison

[pacbuddies]

 

 

 

 

We would have to increase our goal scoring to just over 1.22 goals per game just to equal McLeish's poor return of 37 goals scored in 2011/12.

 

 

 

Does it even matter if we won 1-0 all the time?

 

Obviously, we won't and, obviously, goal scoring is a problem - but comparing it back to another season (and randomly 2011/12 at that, huh?) is pointless in isolation.

 

I was comparing back to the lowest number of goals we have scored in a season in the last 10 years which happens to be 2011/12. What is wrong with that? If I had compared it to the highest (being 71 in 2007/08) would you have found an excuse to have a pop at that too?

 

 

Not a pop - just saying that it doesn't mean much in isolation.  Our goal scoring is a problem, sure, but I wouldn't be fussed if we scored the lowest amount of goals in the history of an Aston Villa season if we won plenty of games 1-0.

 

Didn't realise the 2011/12 season was our lowest over the last 10 years though, fair comparison

 

Fair enough.

 

Looking back over the last 19 seasons (since 38 games became the norm) only on 3 occasions has a team stayed up when scoring less than 32 goals:

 

2006/07 - 29

2001/02 - 29

1996/97 - 28

 

Hence why I really think we need to step it up and score more than treble the number of goals we have now in order to have a chance.

 

We all know that we can't even string together 3 wins on the bounce let alone 22 1-0 wins. 

[TrentVilla]

I think you have a fair point in regards goal scoring or lack of, it's hard not to be critical of that even if you are generally still in support of Lambert. So you've a fair and reasoned point.

But it's rather in isolation. I'd imagine most sides that have scored as few as us at this stage of a season also had far less points. I'd also imagine very few sides have gone down having our number of points at this stage.

So although I share the concerns re goal scoring and I'd certainly welcome us scoring more I'm less certain about the direct correlation between the goals we score and our chances of staying up.

[pacbuddies]

I think you have a fair point in regards goal scoring or lack of, it's hard not to be critical of that even if you are generally still in support of Lambert. So you've a fair and reasoned point.

But it's rather in isolation. I'd imagine most sides that have scored as few as us at this stage of a season also had far less points. I'd also imagine very few sides have gone down having our number of points at this stage.

So although I share the concerns re goal scoring and I'd certainly welcome us scoring more I'm less certain about the direct correlation between the goals we score and our chances of staying up.

The only thing I can say is that there is a sort of correlation between goals scored and the chances of staying up in that in 16 out of 19 premiership seasons nobody has stayed up scoring less than 32 goals.

 

This would seem to suggest that if you are a low scoring team then you have a better chance of going down than if you are a high scoring team.

 

Even in the 3 seasons where surviving teams scored less than 32 goals the number of goals scored by them (28 & 29) means that we need to notably improve our rate but to be honest I wouldn't want to be playing with fire and taking a chance with these figures and I firmly believe that we need to be scoring in excess of 35 goals whilst maintaining a reasonably tight defence.

 

This will be quite a challenge.

[TrentVilla]

It will but not withstanding that I refer to my original point, I doubt few teams have had our points return having scored so few. Plus few teams will have gone down having accumulated the points we have at this stage.

So while relegation is possible personally I think it is unlikely even if we stay up being low goal scorers.

We shall see I guess in time.

[briny_ear]

For some perspective, Palace finished last season in a comfortable 11th on 45 points scoring only 33 goals in 38 games and a -15 goal difference. I do think we need to score more, but I think our defence is a bigger priority as it is a better platform to build from. In Lambert's first season we were scoring a lot, but our defence was terrible and that just wasn't sustainable. It's easier to improve our attack from a good defensive position than to improve our weak defence while maintaining our previous style. I'm hoping to see Lambert move towards some middle ground this season.

I don't think that really provides perspective, rather it quotes a single outlier in an attempt to cast doubt on a statement that was backed up with a broader set of supporting stats. 

 

I think the original post raised a very interesting concern. My only reason for not discussing it further here is because there is already a thread called "Goals (or lack of) " where it would be better placed.