VillaChris Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I'd say the bottom half is of a worst standard than last season, very few in the bottom half will probably even get to 40 points. Just look at the gap between 10th and even 9th. It is very poor if we just scrape to 40 points, after Chelsea I was expecting us to finish 10th and finish between 45-50 points, beyond us now imo. That would give us hope with an astute signing or two in the summer, we could push on and have a Southampton/Newcastle season next year e.g. never in any relegation trouble and challenging the top 6 for part of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 More important for me is whether we can do better than last season, and by how much. So that's 41 points to beat. In my book, if we don't do markedly better than that, the season will have been a failure, I see us finishing with in 3 points of last season so no worse than 38 and no better than 44. Either way I think we have simply stood still this season which is very disappointing. Only if you look at points totals, which is a bit of a meaningless stat on its own.I think it's a bit odd to describe it as "meaningless". It's largely a straight comparison with how we have done in previous seasons. If we get fewer points this time, we will not have done as well. All the clever wordplay in the world won't get away from that simple truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) What "wordplay"? I thought it was common sense that final league position is more important than points totals. Are you telling me you'd rather us get more points but finish lower? Straight comparisons with previous seasons are hard to make due to the fact that every team changes, not just us. Surely improvement should be measured on the basis of performance with regards to those around you? Ultimately the success of a league season isn't judged on how many points a team gets but where they finish in the table. Edited March 24, 2014 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) I think how you judge progress is clearly down to personal opinion and interpretation. For me personally just as I wouldn't be pessimistic enough to class 2 or 3 points and/or finishing 1 or 2 places lower than we did last season as us having gone backwards I won't be straw clutching and stating that we have progressed if we finish with 2 or 3 points more and/or one or two places higher. Bottom line for me will be in either circumstance, based on table, points and performances, that we will have stood still. Of course I am presuming that we won't have an unbelievable finish to the season or an absolute disastrous one. Being realistic though I don't expect either. Edited March 24, 2014 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Saying we've improved because we've finished higher in the league isn't "straw clutching". You may not agree with it but it's a valid opinion. We could easily have an end to the season that's in line with the results of the past couple of months and end up 10th or 11th - that's quite a big improvement on 15th regardless of the final points total. Obviously if we finish 14th or something then you can't really say we've improved much. Edited March 24, 2014 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Like you say, Mantis, it's important to look at the context. There is currently a group of ten clubs at the bottom of the table who are separated by ten points. The quality of football played by this group has been much of a muchness although some, like Villa, have had one or twp purple patches and so are justifiably at the top of the group. (Whether Stoke rejoin this group and make it a bottom 11 remains to be seen). On the whole , the football we have played this season hasn't been much better than last and in some ways can be seen as worse because we were promised as part of the Lambert "project" that a young group of players would come together and get better as they developed as a team and gained premier league experience. If we end up 11th, at the top of this group but without having pulled away significantly from them on points, then I don't think you can say that 11th is much better than 15th. It won't indicate that the quality of our football has improved, so won't constitute meaningful progress. That is why I am looking for us to improve significantly on the points we gain as the true measure of progress this season. It might still happen but it's hard to believe just at the moment, having seen the lame surrender to Stoke. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Why would 11th not be that much better than 15th? It may not be dramatic improvement (but then what do you expect given the resources Lambert has at his disposal?) but it's fair improvement. The whole point of a league is to finish as high as possible. Points totals are just a way to determine the placing in that league and style of play is largely subjective. I also don't think you can count Stoke out of this group. They're still 8 points behind Southampton in 9th and many of the clubs below them (including ourselves) have a game in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted March 25, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yeah Stoke are 3 points in front and we have a game in hand with the same goal difference. Not impossible to catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Why would 11th not be that much better than 15th? I think you'll find I wrote 4 paragraphs explaining why I thought that, so just repeating the question doesn't seem too productive an approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Why would 11th not be that much better than 15th? I think you'll find I wrote 4 paragraphs explaining why I thought that, so just repeating the question doesn't seem too productive an approach. Well you didn't really answer it properly. You talk about points and perceived quality of the style of play but at the end of the day, the whole point of a league is to finish as high as you can and finishing 4 places higher would show that we have improved our long-term form. Let's also not forget that finishing 4 places higher means millions more in prize money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 But still just scrapeing to 40 points again isn't getting us back In the top 8 soon is it? After being Chelsea I was hoping we would really push on, win a few more games and try to get as close to 50 points as possible to give hope for next season that with a couple of astute signings we could push on and have a Newcastle/Southampton sort of season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Biro Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Newcastle aren't that far ahead of us in most aspects, southampton however are growing far faster than we ever could under lerner/lambert and their style is pretty easy on the eye too. Personally i just get the feeling we'll be back here talking about another season of just doing enough or even worse possibly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roonst83 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 We've progressed defensively but regressed offensively, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Newcastle aren't that far ahead of us in most aspects, southampton however are growing far faster than we ever could under lerner/lambert and their style is pretty easy on the eye too. Personally i just get the feeling we'll be back here talking about another season of just doing enough or even worse possibly. Newcastle have been far more consistant than us v the bottom half teams, 6 points v Palace, 4 points v West Ham etc hence why they have 13 more points on the board and really they've had the sort of season I was hoping for, comfortable in the league with never any hint of relegation trouble. I do agree they could slip back into the pack next season as Cabaye was massive for them and their results have declined so interested to see who they replace him with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) its a good job some on here are not commissioned to build castles.....there would be about 10 moats around it. folk can be as defensive as they like about the club, but we are treading water, thats all. we are just splitting hairs. Edited March 26, 2014 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Biro Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Newcastle aren't that far ahead of us in most aspects, southampton however are growing far faster than we ever could under lerner/lambert and their style is pretty easy on the eye too. Personally i just get the feeling we'll be back here talking about another season of just doing enough or even worse possibly. Newcastle have been far more consistant than us v the bottom half teams, 6 points v Palace, 4 points v West Ham etc hence why they have 13 more points on the board and really they've had the sort of season I was hoping for, comfortable in the league with never any hint of relegation trouble. I do agree they could slip back into the pack next season as Cabaye was massive for them and their results have declined so interested to see who they replace him with. I'm not just talking about results, its the way the club is in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz316 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Why am I more worried about relegation after Tonight????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Why am I more worried about relegation after Tonight????? Because you're mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Sunderland now just have the one game in hand now over ourselves although if we lose away to united and they beat West Ham at home then the gap closes to six points yet I think they've only won three at home all season so we'll see how it alll plays out. I guess that's stating the obvious. I'm not one hundred percent not worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 its a good job some on here are not commissioned to build castles.....there would be about 10 moats around it. folk can be as defensive as they like about the club, but we are treading water, thats all. we are just splitting hairs. It's not even about being defensive, some of us are just responding to this idea that we wouldn't have improved this season if we finish mid-table. I don't think anyone is denying the problems this club faces but they don't need to be pointed out constantly - we're already aware of them thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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