Margaret Thatcher dies of a stroke.

[CI]

It's because what she did was so monumentally bad and catastrophic for so many. What people don't realise is we are still paying for it today and it's getting worse.

 

Do you have examples for these points? I'm very interested.

Privatising the electricity and gas boards for one . Have you looked at your bills lately

[Jon]

who have most probably been very, very badly affected by her 'reign'.

I very much doubt anyone who wasn't born during her reign will have been very, very badly affected.

I beg to differ.

 

also, you only appear to have quoted half my sentence. I said 'many of those celebrating', not all.

[tonyh29]

I personally disliked both what she stood for, and what she did, but would not go so far as to 'celebrate' her death. I don't think i've 'celebrated' anyones death, TBH.

Obviously I disagree with you on the politics side of the bit I've quoted , but im with you 100% on the second half of your statement Edited April 10, 2013 by tonyh29

[PauloBarnesi]

A selection of front pages

 

Its hard to imagine any British prime minister bar Churchill generating this kind of coverage, and after him the most influential (whether for good or bad) British politician of the 20th Century.

[Houlston]

 

who have most probably been very, very badly affected by her 'reign'.

I very much doubt anyone who wasn't born during her reign will have been very, very badly affected.

I beg to differ.

 

also, you only appear to have quoted half my sentence. I said 'many of those celebrating', not all.

I beg to differ

 

I never said you did say all, I still don't think anyone born after her reign will have been very very badly affected especially to the extent to celebrate her death.

[LondonLax]

As for privatisation, its entire purpose is to direct part of the profits of an enterprise into private hands where previously there had been no profit distributed. The rhetoric is that this comes from "efficiency gains", but in fact it comes from price increases. Right now we are all paying more for our energy than we would have had it not been privatised.

 

Whilst the rhetoric of this statement might sound 'right on' there is absolutely nothing to support this notion. Your use of quotations marks around efficiency gains detracts from the reality that the nationalised industries were, in the main, remarkably inefficient, operating at a loss and propped up by premiums added to bills and the tax payer. The fact is in 1975 the UK consumer was paying more for their electricity and gas than any other Western European country, today it pays the least.

 

 

Yep. Privatisation massively improves efficiency. Once an industry actually has to stand on its own two feet or risk going bust all the waste is quickly cut.

 

I have worked in private companies and am now in a government organisation and the difference in culture is massive. There is no risk of being fired or made redundant in the public company even now during supposed government cuts. Employees continue to receive above inflation pay rises every year regardless. Meanwhile staff still leave the office at 4 in the afternoon and there are long group tea breaks during the day that you just couldn’t afford to take in my old company. There is even a guy who regularly has a nap at his desk after lunch!

 

I think the best way to structure services is to have a range of private options running for profit and then a public company running not for profit and without subsidies. That way they both systems keep each other in check. The private companies can’t collude and screw people down and the public company is kept on its toes as well.   

[markavfc40]

The lives of people born after she left office have been effected. Take unemployment as one example. When she came in to power unemployment was 1.4 million. Within 5 years it had gone up by 2 million. Due to her destructive policies we have never been able to get the unemployment level back down to anywhere near the level we had before she came in to power. That alone will have had a massive impact on many people born after she left office.

 

I think some people under estimate the negative impact she had on many people's lives. We are talking about lives having been ruined. For many of those she governed ,and who totally despise her, they endured a live of extreme hardship and struggle. All hope having been ripped away from them. Their whole lives and communities shattered. You can't under play the devastating impact the policies she introduced had on many communities and those communities have simply still not recovered.

 

There would have been no national public outpouring of grief for a miner back in the eighties who in his 30s,40's,50s  had his whole world torn apart and hit rock bottom and took his own life. There were many cases of people who had lost all hope due to Thatcher and her government. I really don't see why there should be any mourning for a woman who destroyed communities and ruined lives and who lived to a very grand old age of 87 and died in the Ritz.

[CI]

How come my train ticket has gone up 15% a year again this year for the 12th year running. Where's the efficiency in that

[LondonLax]

2) Privatisation is an entirely bad thing.

 

This question is quicker to answer you if you reverse it. It's a bit like pure maths.

 

Which privatised industry has worked out better for the vast majority? Arguably telecoms.

 

Which ones have worked out worse for the vast majority? The rest.

  

 

Lots of deregulation and privatisation has been a massive boost for the economy and made jobs and services much more accessible for regular people.

 

The privatisation of airlines has enabled regular people to travel by plane. It used to be the case that families had to go on holiday to Blackpool every summer. Now people travel all over Europe and further afield.

 

Getting rid of closed shop of the city was also a required deregulation. No longer do you have to have a father with a peerage to work in insurance or finance. I have lots of friends in East London with working class backgrounds working in the city, male and female.

[Houlston]

The lives of people born after she left office have been effected. Take unemployment as one example. When she came in to power unemployment was 1.4 million. Within 5 years it had gone up by 2 million. Due to her destructive policies we have never been able to get the unemployment level back down to anywhere near the level we had before she came in to power. That alone will have had a massive impact on many people born after she left office.

 

I think some people under estimate the negative impact she had on many people's lives. We are talking about lives having been ruined. For many of those she governed ,and who totally despise her, they endured a live of extreme hardship and struggle. All hope having been ripped away from them. Their whole lives and communities shattered. You can't under play the devastating impact the policies she introduced had on many communities and those communities have simply still not recovered.

 

There would have been no national public outpouring of grief for a miner back in the eighties who in his 30s,40's,50s  had his whole world torn apart and hit rock bottom and took his own life. There were many cases of people who had lost all hope due to Thatcher and her government. I really don't see why there should be any mourning for a woman who destroyed communities and ruined lives and who lived to a very grand old age of 87 and died in the Ritz.

or what about the widow who also took her own life after her husband died in Iraq? Every era of government bad choices are made & people suffer. But you're telling me that those celebrating on the news have had there lives that badly affected oh and they just happen to go the same university, its rubbish.

[PauloBarnesi]

How come my train ticket has gone up 15% a year again this year for the 12th year running. Where's the efficiency in that

 

Thatcher as has been pointed out earlier was not involved in the botched rail sell off. Something Labour failed to reverse, despite making it policy.

[snowychap]

Yep. Privatisation massively improves efficiency. Once an industry actually has to stand on its own two feet or risk going bust all the waste is quickly cut.

People keep repeating this kind of thing like it's necessary fact.

Even if it were (and I don't agree that it is though there may be more of an attitude in profit making organizations of wanting to try to reduce 'waste' perhaps), the 'live or die' kind of struggle would require different kinds of markets than there largely are in the privatized industries.

[CI]

Ok how about the botched privatisation of British Gas and the Electricity Board.

And encouraging the boom and bust culture of the banking system leading to a fully **** up country where house prices bear little or no resemblence to value.

[Stevo985]

But still, having half the country chuffed to bits about an old woman dying just doesn't sit right with me, regardless of what she did.

 

Really?

Yes

I don't really see why that's so shocking.

I don't particularly like the woman, my family certainly don't like her now or when she was in power.

But are we cracking open a beer or singing Ding Dong the witch is dead to celebrate an 87 year old woman passing away?

Nah. That's not right.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Stevo985

[snowychap]

Thatcher as has been pointed out earlier was not involved in the botched rail sell off. Something Labour failed to reverse, despite making it policy.

It's difficult to argue, surely, that rail privatization didn't occur because of the default position (regarding privatization) that Tory party had moved to over the time of her premiership?

[Richard]

 

But still, having half the country chuffed to bits about an old woman dying just doesn't sit right with me, regardless of what she did.

 

Really?

 

Yes

I don't really see why that's so shocking.

I don't particularly like the woman, my family certainly don't like her now or when she was in power.

But are we cracking open a beer or singing Ding Dong the witch is dead to celebrate an 87 year old woman passing away?

Nah. That's not right.

As per the comment from Tony above I disagree on the politics but 100% agree with the absolutely morally decent second bit which is right and proper .

[EastEndVillan]

 

As for privatisation, its entire purpose is to direct part of the profits of an enterprise into private hands where previously there had been no profit distributed. The rhetoric is that this comes from "efficiency gains", but in fact it comes from price increases. Right now we are all paying more for our energy than we would have had it not been privatised.

 

Whilst the rhetoric of this statement might sound 'right on' there is absolutely nothing to support this notion. Your use of quotations marks around efficiency gains detracts from the reality that the nationalised industries were, in the main, remarkably inefficient, operating at a loss and propped up by premiums added to bills and the tax payer. The fact is in 1975 the UK consumer was paying more for their electricity and gas than any other Western European country, today it pays the least.

 

 

Yep. Privatisation massively improves efficiency. Once an industry actually has to stand on its own two feet or risk going bust all the waste is quickly cut.

 

I have worked in private companies and am now in a government organisation and the difference in culture is massive. There is no risk of being fired or made redundant in the public company even now during supposed government cuts. Employees continue to receive above inflation pay rises every year regardless. Meanwhile staff still leave the office at 4 in the afternoon and there are long group tea breaks during the day that you just couldn’t afford to take in my old company. There is even a guy who regularly has a nap at his desk after lunch!

 

I think the best way to structure services is to have a range of private options running for profit and then a public company running not for profit and without subsidies. That way they both systems keep each other in check. The private companies can’t collude and screw people down and the public company is kept on its toes as well.   

 

I would love to know what Government body that is. I have worked for two large public sector institutions, Westminster City Council, and now the MPS. I can can assure you with both of those organisations (in recent times) there have been no above inflation pay rises and both organisations have made significant number of people redundant.

[LondonLax]

please humour me and help me understand why:

 

1) Emasculating the trade unions was a bad thing.

 

2) Privatisation is an entirely bad thing.

 

Reducing the power of the unions has played a big part in wages slipping back and income distribution becoming more unequal. Where decades ago it was common for the average family to have one wage-earner, now most families need two wage earners to have a roughly comparable position. (Leave aside advances in technology driving the cost of things down, I mean to remain in a roughly comparable position in relation to other people).

 

 

That is a result of feminism not privatisation.

 

Once women joined the work force then households with two incomes are always going to have more buying power than single earning households. This drives up the prices of houses as now mortgages are based on a duel income instead of a single income. You can put that genie back into the bottle and roll back to the 50s.

 

Things like cars, furniture, TVs etc however have come down massively relative to income.

As for pensions, Australia's superanuation system is a fantastic example of privatised pensions working much better than the old public system.

[Richard]

Very much like Doug Ellis this for me.

 

I actively campaigned for his removal when he was in charge of the club,  hated the way he ran the place and what he did for us.  Was thrilled when he left.  Will I celebrate or "rejoice" when he dies,  or wish death on those remaining in his family?  Absolutely not actually to do so would be morally indecent and show a total lack of dignity.

[snowychap]

Privatising the electricity and gas boards for one . Have you looked at your bills lately

We've no real idea of the counterfactual (i.e. what your bills would look like now if it were still the gas board and the MEB), though, so I don't think that argument is going to get us too far. Edited April 10, 2013 by snowychap