John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Good post - except for the opening quote!! Some people like to think HDE was a bad, bad ogre ... he perhaps had a lot of faults as chairman but he was and is human. A bit like us, perhaps!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Ellis wouldn't have sold our 4 best players in the space of a couple of years like Lerner did. I think getting the Champions of Europe relegated within five years was worse. Oh, and I think if you look over the transfers then you'll find similar clear outs happened under Ellis. When we sold the equivalent players back then, eg Platt and Yorke, the profits were at least reinvested in the team, eg on players like Saunders and Dublin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMcKenna Posted November 23, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 23, 2011 Needs to be a bit of commonsense here. As much as I am dissatisfied with Lerner, there is now way he worse than ellis! That said, he is taking us down a similar road and many of his comments are reminiscent of ellis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 ... There's a number of vociferous posters on here who could channel their energy to something more positive - try to make a change. Get together, form a pressure group or organise a protest. See if you can force the change you want. You know, though you make a very good point, the fact is that some of the posters here are (as you suggest) trying to obtain some kind of consensus. Swapping constructive points of view and possible ideals/solutions is a good thing i.m.o. As we really have to see what evolves through the January period there's not much point in doing anything else for now, except, perhaps, by just not going to matches. But that's down to individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Phew. I thought everyone had lost their marbles completely. Thanks for showing there's at least some perspective and sanity left, mctw. I'm glad someone appreciates that there's still some perspective to be had. What I will also say is this: whilst I don't agree with a lot of stuff on this thread, I sympathise with everyone's frustrations. However, there's no point just writing about it on a message board. This thread could rumble on for months to come. The reading of posts, writing of responses, and backwards and forwards, round and round debate that goes on is a waste of time and energy. There's a number of vociferous posters on here who could channel their energy to something more positive - try to make a change. Get together, form a pressure group or organise a protest. See if you can force the change you want. Doing nothing but posting on here does no good. Your voices won't be heard. It will just end in frustration whilst the man at the top maintains his untouchable, and undisturbed, position at the club. Who knows what might happen. Maybe something you perceive to be positive. Maybe nothing. Maybe he'll sell. Maybe you'll just get some answers to some difficult questions. Who knows! What we do know is that Randy is going nowhere and getting irate on Villatalk achieves little! Self praise is no recommendation. I don't consider your post to be "having perspective", just a different, incorrect opinion. As to whether it does any good posting on Villatalk, I don't think anybody posts anything on here with the aim of changing anything. It's just a place to talk about Villa, and discussions like this on something Villa related is doing exactly that. Is it pointless posting in the politics threads in Off Topic? David Cameron is hardly going to read a peterms post and think "you know what, actually I WILL borrow some more and spend more on the public sector afterall." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2011 The main reign of HDE started at the end of 1982, just at the time that the club was losing a lot of money (for those days), the debacle about the North Stand was getting to its peak and - importantly - there was a national (and particularly Midlands-affected) depression. Apart from Harry Parkes' consortium, there was only HDE who was available to put the matters right. In trying to do so he had to tighten the purse strings, just like RL is now doing - no different. Unfortunately, the depression plus one or two poor managerial appointments (just like RL) saw relegation take place. But then he appointed Graham Taylor. So those circumstances were perfectly acceptable and act as an excuse for what Ellis did in the first few years but very similar circumstances now mean we have an excuse to have a pop at Lerner? Sorry I don't follow the logic of that. It's ok for Ellis to have those circumstances and get us relegated from a Champions of Europe starting point but it's not ok for Lerner? Sounds like Double Standards to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think trying to draw exact comparisons between Deadly and Randy are wrong. I don't think anyone is making a direct comparison it's the similarities thats all. What concerns some of us is that RL is not learning from his mistakes and is going along the same route as Doug did and that is not the route we should be going down. Added to the fact in1982 Doug had little money to invest and no sources of revenue, RL has the Lerner Trust that he seems to be running on a much better business level than AVFC - having said that it is because he has financial experts looking after the Trust but no Football experts looking after the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NowDoINotLikeThat Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Yeh think the Lerner V Ellis comparisons are way off. Different times , different scenarios etc. But agree Lerner and co. seemingly have no clue when it comes to the football side of the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Phew. I thought everyone had lost their marbles completely. Thanks for showing there's at least some perspective and sanity left, mctw. I'm glad someone appreciates that there's still some perspective to be had. What I will also say is this: whilst I don't agree with a lot of stuff on this thread, I sympathise with everyone's frustrations. However, there's no point just writing about it on a message board. This thread could rumble on for months to come. The reading of posts, writing of responses, and backwards and forwards, round and round debate that goes on is a waste of time and energy. There's a number of vociferous posters on here who could channel their energy to something more positive - try to make a change. Get together, form a pressure group or organise a protest. See if you can force the change you want. Doing nothing but posting on here does no good. Your voices won't be heard. It will just end in frustration whilst the man at the top maintains his untouchable, and undisturbed, position at the club. Who knows what might happen. Maybe something you perceive to be positive. Maybe nothing. Maybe he'll sell. Maybe you'll just get some answers to some difficult questions. Who knows! What we do know is that Randy is going nowhere and getting irate on Villatalk achieves little! I have made my protest. I have not renewed my 2 STs for the first time in 15+ years. I have also made it quite clear to the club why I have not renewed. But I do still enjoy posting on VT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 The main reign of HDE started at the end of 1982, just at the time that the club was losing a lot of money (for those days), the debacle about the North Stand was getting to its peak and - importantly - there was a national (and particularly Midlands-affected) depression. Apart from Harry Parkes' consortium, there was only HDE who was available to put the matters right. In trying to do so he had to tighten the purse strings, just like RL is now doing - no different. Unfortunately, the depression plus one or two poor managerial appointments (just like RL) saw relegation take place. But then he appointed Graham Taylor. So those circumstances were perfectly acceptable and act as an excuse for what Ellis did in the first few years but very similar circumstances now mean we have an excuse to have a pop at Lerner? Sorry I don't follow the logic of that. It's ok for Ellis to have those circumstances and get us relegated from a Champions of Europe starting point but it's not ok for Lerner? Sounds like Double Standards to me. Bicks - please read in context. I was simply enunciating exactly what happened for the benefit of the original writer, whose history was not clear. Why do you assume I am inferring something else? On the other hand, there are similarities that have transpired that connect RL to HDE in terms of decisions taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think trying to draw exact comparisons between Deadly and Randy are wrong. I don't think anyone is making a direct comparison it's the similarities thats all. What concerns some of us is that RL is not learning from his mistakes and is going along the same route as Doug did and that is not the route we should be going down. Added to the fact in1982 Doug had little money to invest and no sources of revenue, RL has the Lerner Trust that he seems to be running on a much better business level than AVFC - having said that it is because he has financial experts looking after the Trust but no Football experts looking after the club Spot on. All of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 So those circumstances were perfectly acceptable and act as an excuse for what Ellis did in the first few years but very similar circumstances now mean we have an excuse to have a pop at Lerner? I may be wrong as I was only 1 in 1982 but isn't John saying that doug inherited financial issues when he came whereas Lerner is now cutting back due to the financial issues caused from his poor leadership and control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houllierout Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 lets all agree they both are crap..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think trying to draw exact comparisons between Deadly and Randy are wrong. I don't think anyone is making a direct comparison it's the similarities thats all. What concerns some of us is that RL is not learning from his mistakes and is going along the same route as Doug did and that is not the route we should be going down. Added to the fact in1982 Doug had little money to invest and no sources of revenue, RL has the Lerner Trust that he seems to be running on a much better business level than AVFC - having said that it is because he has financial experts looking after the Trust but no Football experts looking after the club Spot on. All of it. Who would be a football expert then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 So those circumstances were perfectly acceptable and act as an excuse for what Ellis did in the first few years but very similar circumstances now mean we have an excuse to have a pop at Lerner? I may be wrong as I was only 1 in 1982 but isn't John saying that doug inherited financial issues when he came whereas Lerner is now cutting back due to the financial issues caused from his poor leadership and control? Yes, B_J, those are the distinct issues, but in that post Bicks refers to I was essentially trying to put straight a little bit of the history about HDE. Historically, just because of the 1982 EC success followed by HDE's de facto appointment and what happened afterwards, there's a great temptation to throw all the blame at HDE. It's very easy to do so in retrospect. I'm not saying HDE was innocent, but the situation was not ideal for him by any means. He did not come back as chairman with cash to invest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2011 Personally I find any comparison between Lerner and Ellis frustrating. I find it frustrating when people say he is no different/better than Ellis but then I find it frustrating when people defend him by saying he is better than Ellis. Neither are really very helpful in discussing the here and now. I wish Ellis could just be left out of the topic all together because it doesn't have any relevance to the job Randy is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Who would be a football expert then? Well he had one and got rid of him Steve Stride. For all his problems with Doug, Steve is a football man with many many contacts he made over the years and is a Villa man. What he did he did, despite Doug, never really got the praise he deserved for some of the signings and negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Personally I find any comparison between Lerner and Ellis frustrating. I find it frustrating when people say he is no different/better than Ellis but then I find it frustrating when people defend him by saying he is better than Ellis. Neither are really very helpful in discussing the here and now. I wish Ellis could just be left out of the topic all together because it doesn't have any relevance to the job Randy is doing. I'd agree Trent, but some of the decisions RL has been making have some of the stamp of HDE about them. RL claims to know all the history but clearly has not looked at Doug's history and what the fans had to endure during his (Doug's) time, nor drawn lessons from Doug's policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 John would your opinion be any different if you were still employed by the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morley_crosses_to_Withe Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 John, you've worked within the club. Can I ask a genuine question - if there's another window of under investment and we also flirt with relegation again, what do you think could be done (given the fact it appears Randy doesn't want to sell)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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