gharperr Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Noway is Ligue 1 pretty close to the prem. According to dailyfail from 2014 (wages would have raised even more in the prem since then given TV money etc), England average wages is 2.3x more than Ligue 1. Good luck at attracting anywhere close to the standard of players when youre offering so little wages. Edited August 31, 2015 by gharperr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 It's definitely of a lower standard but the style of play is more similar than say La Liga or Serie A, that's what I was getting at. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I never agree with Lexicon but have to on this point. I didn't watch Blackburn once last year but I know that Gestede is better at scoring headed goals than gabby. Veretout last year scored more, assisted more, dribbled past players more and had more shots at goal. Now Westwood playing a different midfield role effects that and its possible that Westwood could change his game the more advanced he plays but I think Veretout has the potential to be better in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I was one of those that said I didn't rate Westwood that highly. But to be fair he has been decent so far. Nothing amazing but deserves a place in the team. He seems to be enjoying playing alongside Gana it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Noway is Ligue 1 pretty close to the prem. According to dailyfail from 2014 (wages would have raised even more in the prem since then given TV money etc), England average wages is 2.3x more than Ligue 1. Good luck at attracting anywhere close to the standard of players when youre offering so little wages. That doesn't mean they won't produce good French born players. It just means they will struggle to keep them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharperr Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Noway is Ligue 1 pretty close to the prem. According to dailyfail from 2014 (wages would have raised even more in the prem since then given TV money etc), England average wages is 2.3x more than Ligue 1. Good luck at attracting anywhere close to the standard of players when youre offering so little wages. That doesn't mean they won't produce good French born players. It just means they will struggle to keep them. exactly which is going to decrease the standard of the league as time goes on. When teams who just come up from the championship can probably offer onpar/more wages than top 6 in another league (im kind of guessing here), the standard of the leagues is going to be very different. Edited August 31, 2015 by gharperr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I was one of those that said I didn't rate Westwood that highly. But to be fair he has been decent so far. Nothing amazing but deserves a place in the team. He seems to be enjoying playing alongside Gana it seems. Who wouldn't? That guy is a machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2015 Of course it does but I understand why you don't agree. I personally would seriously question the validity of assessing a player based on a comparison of stats in two completely different leagues. On that basis Max Gradel is a better goal scorer than Benteke! I wouldn't say that Ligue 1 is completely different to the prem though, in fact as far as European leagues go it's pretty close. With regards to your other point, you'd say that Gradel had a more prolific season than Benteke last season but that's about it. But you said you didn't watch Ligue 1 didn't you? I mean it might be the most similar, I really don't know I don't watch it but neither do you seemingly. Your point was Vertout is better than Westwood based on stats, thus my point about Gradel which shows why this is more than a little flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2015 I never agree with Lexicon but have to on this point. I didn't watch Blackburn once last year but I know that Gestede is better at scoring headed goals than gabby. Veretout last year scored more, assisted more, dribbled past players more and had more shots at goal. Now Westwood playing a different midfield role effects that and its possible that Westwood could change his game the more advanced he plays but I think Veretout has the potential to be better in that position. So you agree Max Gradel is a better goal scorer than Benteke? Comparing stats in different leagues is simply fundamentally flawed, Lexicon may well be right that Vertout is better than Westwood at these things but at the moment it remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Currently have no issues with our midfield. Easily the strongest part of our team. In the long run I think either westwood will have to continue to improve (as he has in my eyes this season) orhe will become a squad player. That's if we really want to kick on. Him and the others need to start chipping in with goals now but at least they are getting in the positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) I said that based on the stats, Veretout scores more goals and gets more assists than Westwood. I didn't say that he was 'better' which I think is a more subjective and simplistic thing to say. RE: Gradel, as I said, he had a more prolific season last season than Benteke did - that's clear from the numbers but it doesn't mean that he's 'better'. I also said that I hadn't seen Veretout play but I have seen some Ligue 1 matches. Edited August 31, 2015 by lexicon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2015 Gana destroys/intercepts, Veretout scores/creates chances, Westwood... passes? I think Sherwood is trying to get him to add an extra dimension to his game and get him to push forward, hence playing him with Sanchez and giving him some freedom from defensive responsibilities. The problem is, we already seem to have a player in Veretout that can do that better... so I think his time may be limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) I never agree with Lexicon but have to on this point. I didn't watch Blackburn once last year but I know that Gestede is better at scoring headed goals than gabby. Veretout last year scored more, assisted more, dribbled past players more and had more shots at goal. Now Westwood playing a different midfield role effects that and its possible that Westwood could change his game the more advanced he plays but I think Veretout has the potential to be better in that position. So you agree Max Gradel is a better goal scorer than Benteke? Comparing stats in different leagues is simply fundamentally flawed, Lexicon may well be right that Vertout is better than Westwood at these things but at the moment it remains to be seen. Nobody said that he was a better goal scorer. The stats only show that he scored more goals than Benteke did last season, they also show that Benteke has scored loads more goals over his career than Gradel has. Gana destroys/intercepts, Veretout scores/creates chances, Westwood... passes? I think Sherwood is trying to get him to add an extra dimension to his game and get him to push forward, hence playing him with Sanchez and giving him some freedom from defensive responsibilities. The problem is, we already seem to have a player in Veretout that can do that better... so I think his time may be limited. 'Seem to' and the context was that he was better at pushing forward, not that he is just plain better. Edited August 31, 2015 by lexicon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2015 Round in circles. You have based your opinion that Vertout 'seems' to be better at something than Westwood based on stats from performances you haven't seen in a different league. On that same basis you would have to take the same view that Gradel 'seems' better at scoring goals based on his stats compared to Benteke. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharperr Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Also have to remember all them performances was under lambert. Where no midfielder was able to enter the final third. Nobody was allowed to move. Just hope benteke gets the ball and creates something out of nothing. So that + with ligue 1 being softer league + different roles played...i think its pretty flawed to use stats to say who can play one role better than the other. or 'seem to' have someone who is better than someone else. Only one who can make that a pretty educated guess are the ones on the training pitch. Think it should just be left unknown until we see what happens in the future as to who is better at playing the more attacking MF role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This Gradel thing really isn't relevant at all, I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Nobody can deny that Gradel scored more goals than Benteke last season, so with those stats all you can say is that last season he was more prolific. The stats would also show that Benteke has scored more goals over his career and has a better goals-per-game ratio, so you could argue that Benteke seems to be a better bet for goals than Gradel. With Veretout and Westwood, the former has scored more goals and got more assists than Westwood has in one season fewer. I'd say that would make him a better bet attacking wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted August 31, 2015 Moderator Share Posted August 31, 2015 It is absolutely relevant because it is an example of why In saying stats between different leagues are a flawed way of judging if a player is better or seems better at something than another especially when you've not seen the player. You don't want me to keep bringing it up because you know I'm right and you haven't got an answer to it. I know Benteke is a better goal scorer that is kind of the point. Vertout may be better at these things than Westwood but until he does better than him in the PL we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Unless our midfield, Westwood included chip with a lot more a lot more goals and assists we are screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The chances they created the other day were fine. Just need someone to put them away. Agree that they need to score more. On the subject of vertout - I haven't seen anything yet to suggest he's good at anything in this league. Early days with him tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I never agree with Lexicon but have to on this point. I didn't watch Blackburn once last year but I know that Gestede is better at scoring headed goals than gabby. Veretout last year scored more, assisted more, dribbled past players more and had more shots at goal. Now Westwood playing a different midfield role effects that and its possible that Westwood could change his game the more advanced he plays but I think Veretout has the potential to be better in that position. So you agree Max Gradel is a better goal scorer than Benteke? Comparing stats in different leagues is simply fundamentally flawed, Lexicon may well be right that Vertout is better than Westwood at these things but at the moment it remains to be seen. So you're saying you'd have to watch Gestede play for us before determining one of his strengths is headed goals? I think it's fair to use stats to help form an opinion. On gradel and benteke the comparison doesn't work because I've watched benteke for 3 years, if it was 2 unknown players then those stats would probably lead me to believe Gradel had the potential to be a better goal scorer. Now we've rarely, if ever, seen Westwood as an attacking midfield player and most won't have seen Veretout play that role. But what we do know is that Veretout has been successful playing that role and from what I've seen of Westwood, I'm not sure he has the same potential. For me I'd much rather Westwood keep improving as the holding player as I think he's more suited to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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