hs2 Waste of Money or not?

[kidlewis]

it certainly isn't a no brainer to take the Eurostar. In face anywhere outside london where there is a direct flight it's probably cheaper and better to fly.

[tonyh29]

Shhhh now Lewis ....the world doesn't Revolve around those people you know....

[kidlewis]

you mean around people outside London or the M25?

It's like those pricks at Plane Stupid who are obviously completely mental because they don't believe we need short haul flights let alone domestic.

both at the moment are required and after HS2 both will still be required.

[PauloBarnesi]

it certainly isn't a no brainer to take the Eurostar. In face anywhere outside london where there is a direct flight it's probably cheaper and better to fly.

HS2 isn’t a cure all; of course it won’t stop the need for flights, but will lower the need if it eventually gets laid out across the country.

[PauloBarnesi]

Got the go ahead

A controversial new high-speed rail line between London and Birmingham has been given the go-ahead by government.

This first phase of High Speed Two (HS2) could be running by 2026, later extending to northern England.

Transport Secretary Justine Greening has announced extra tunnelling along the 90-mile (140km) first phase in response to environmental concerns.

Opponents also dispute government claims the whole project will cost £32bn and deliver benefits worth £47bn.

The first phase of the project would cut London-Birmingham journey times, on 225mph trains, to 49 minutes, Ms Greening said.

This would be followed by a second phase of Y-shaped track reaching Manchester and Leeds by about 2033.

Connections to existing lines should then cut journey times between London, and Edinburgh and Glasgow, to three-and-a-half hours.

Continue reading the main story

Department for Transport detailed maps

Ms Greening called the line "the most significant transport infrastructure project since the building of the motorways".

"By following in the footsteps of the 19th Century railway pioneers, the government is signalling its commitment to providing 21st Century infrastructure and connections - laying the groundwork for long-term, sustainable economic growth," she said.

The minister pledged a commitment to "developing a network with the lowest feasible impacts on local communities and the natural environment".

"I have been mindful that we must safeguard the natural environment as far as possible, both for the benefit of those enjoying our beautiful countryside today and for future generations."

Changes to the plans, which Ms Greening said now meant "more than half the route will now be mitigated by tunnel or cutting", include new or extended tunnels at: Amersham in Buckinghamshire; Ruislip in north-west London; Greatworth in Northamptonshire; Turweston in Buckinghamshire; Chipping Warden and Aston le Walls in Northamptonshire; Wendover in Buckinghamshire; and Long Itchington Wood in Warwickshire.

Protest groups formed to oppose the scheme say the planned route crosses an area of outstanding natural beauty and it will damage the environment.

Opponents have also challenged the government's economic argument, suggesting the costs will be greater while the economic benefits will be lower than forecast, and that the business case for HS2 is based on an overly-optimistic prediction of growth in demand for long-distance train travel.

'Wealthy few'

"There is no business case, no environmental case and there is no money to pay for it," said Stop HS2 campaign co-ordinator Joe Rukin.

Continue reading the main story

“

Start Quote

The process for deciding on the London-Birmingham part of HS2 has been too narrow and people feel left out”

Stephen Joseph

Chief executive, Campaign for Better Transport

"It's a white elephant of monumental proportions and you could deliver more benefits to more people more quickly for less money by investing in the current rail infrastructure."

Craig Bennett, director of policy and campaigns at Friends of the Earth, said: "We need to revolutionise travel away from roads and planes, but pumping £32bn into high-speed travel for the wealthy few while ordinary commuters suffer is not the answer.

"High-speed rail has a role to play in developing a greener, faster transport system, but current plans won't do enough to cut emissions overall - ministers should prioritise spending on improving local train and bus services instead."

However, the plan would be welcomed by "businesses up and down the country", said John Longworth, director general of the British Chambers of Commerce.

"Britain cannot continue to 'make do and mend' when it comes to its substandard infrastructure. Fundamentally, our global competitiveness is at stake," he said.

The 90-mile first-phase of HS2 would be built between 2016 and 2026

Stephen Joseph, chief executive of Campaign for Better Transport, said: "We're pleased to see the government investing in rail, rather than roads and aviation, and acting on some of the local environmental concerns surrounding HS2."

But he went on: "The process for deciding on the London-Birmingham part of HS2 has been too narrow and people feel left out.

"In consulting on the lines north of Birmingham, the government needs to involve people earlier with greater discussion of alternative options, including ways rail investment can support low-carbon growth in the communities served, and also how any new lines will integrate with existing networks and improve local as well as long-distance transport."

[mjmooney]

Work doesn't even start till 2016!!!

Piss-up in a brewery.

[limpid]

It takes that long to do the CPOs Mike.

[mjmooney]

I remember advice from an IT management textbook that went something like: "Any project with a lead time longer than nine months shouldn't be started - any longer, and the world will have changed too unpredictably".

[johnsonp]

Is it a waste of money? Depends what its compared to. Would it better to spend the money on improving the NHS? Improving the education system? On tax cuts? The money spent on this would have long term benefit, far beyond our lives.

Ultimately the line IMO should be the beginning of a widespread high speed network across the country.

Birmingham 1h 10m 0h 55m

Manchester 2h 08m 1h 06m

Leeds 2h 05m 1h 25m

Liverpool 2h 8m 1h 15m

Newcastle 2h 50m 1h 40m

Edinburgh 4h 05m 2h 06m

Glasgow 4h 20m 2h 32m

The benefits to Birmingham aren’t quite as impressive as the times to the rest of the country.

I also think that the who network needs improving; widespread electrification and investment.

From a selfish point of view I would prefer it if they started at the places that would get greater benefit of reduction of times to London (I live in Newcastle) .

I am assuming there is a logistical reason for starting with Birmingham to London, be that cost, it being used as a hub site etc but on the basis that completion of this link alone not being completed for 14 odd years I dread to think of the timescales for other parts of the country.

If I was on twitter I might finish off with #whenimdead..........or whatever it is

[tonyh29]

surely the new times would be more appealing if they showed how quickly you could get out of the city and into London

as a marketing ploy "you are only 1 hr 40 mins from Newcastle" is one of the worse since Pants man

but just think how appealing marketing slogans of

Yas anny yen hoor 40 minutes form Lundun

or

Theur are onny 1 'ahr 20 minutes fra london village , gerr eur sitta for thy whippet ,pick up thy cloth cap 'n nip on see t' civilised world

would be to people in Newcastle or Sheffield

[PauloBarnesi]

From a selfish point of view I would prefer it if they started at the places that would get greater benefit of reduction of times to London (I live in Newcastle) .

I am assuming there is a logistical reason for starting with Birmingham to London, be that cost, it being used as a hub site etc but on the basis that completion of this link alone not being completed for 14 odd years I dread to think of the timescales for other parts of the country.

If I was on twitter I might finish off with #whenimdead..........or whatever it is

I think Newcastle has seen substantial improvements in the speed of service over the last sixty years; I think the steam service (Silver Jubilee) used to be over four hours, and since then its tumbled to two hours and thirty seven with trains running at over 125mph. The ECML has always been a ‘faster line’ and BR certainly experimented with trains going over 140 mph. The line could go in parts up to 160mph

If I recall correctly the train times Birmingham Euston have actually gone up since BR and the line has simply run out of capacity and capacity to get quicker.

I guess also they see Birmingham as a place to start and from here build outwards, so you get the speed also of being able to get from Birmingham to say Glasgow if you need to scout Steven Davies in the year 2050

[johnsonp]

surely the new times would be more appealing if they showed how quickly you could get out of the city and into London

as a marketing ploy "you are only 1 hr 40 mins from Newcastle" is one of the worse since Pants man

but just think how appealing marketing slogans of

Yas anny yen hoor 40 minutes form Lundun

or

Theur are onny 1 'ahr 20 minutes fra london village , gerr eur sitta for thy whippet ,pick up thy cloth cap 'n nip on see t' civilised world

would be to people in Newcastle or Sheffield

But then people like me who still after 6 years of living up here struggle with the local view of english would really be buggered

[johnsonp]

From a selfish point of view I would prefer it if they started at the places that would get greater benefit of reduction of times to London (I live in Newcastle) .

I am assuming there is a logistical reason for starting with Birmingham to London, be that cost, it being used as a hub site etc but on the basis that completion of this link alone not being completed for 14 odd years I dread to think of the timescales for other parts of the country.

If I was on twitter I might finish off with #whenimdead..........or whatever it is

I think Newcastle has seen substantial improvements in the speed of service over the last sixty years; I think the steam service (Silver Jubilee) used to be over four hours, and since then its tumbled to two hours and thirty seven with trains running at over 125mph. The ECML has always been a ‘faster line’ and BR certainly experimented with trains going over 140 mph. The line could go in parts up to 160mph

If I recall correctly the train times Birmingham Euston have actually gone up since BR and the line has simply run out of capacity and capacity to get quicker.

I guess also they see Birmingham as a place to start and from here build outwards, so you get the speed also of being able to get from Birmingham to say Glasgow if you need to scout Steven Davies in the year 2050

I am more keen on increasing the speed from Newcastle to Birmingham than to London to be honest

[Corleone]

Why would you think the trains are only going to go one way?

They will terminate in Birmingham near Curzon Street Station (by the Thinktank if you dont know that part of town too well) and there will be a big elevated walkway with an entrance/exit on Moor Street too. I doubt it will look exactly like this, but it is the image going around at the moment.

SO, If in my case i then wanted to continue my journey up from london back home to lichfield, i would then have to walk over to New Street from Curzon street station to catch the train up to lichfield, thus not saving any overall journey time going home

[The_Rev]

Well, it is a five minute walk (literally) from there to New Street Station. I dare say you would probably get the same connecting train to Lichfield whether you arrived at New Street or at the new terminal. Building the station where it is practical is the main priority here and I think that spot is probably as good as you are going to get. It is as central as New Street station is, and the argument you make about the new station not being ideal for you because you have to get back to Lichfield could just as easily be made by somebody who has to get back to Stourbridge or Solihull if the trains did arrive on new platforms at New Street.

[tonyh29]

was talk of one option being to start hs2 from Heathrow .. or did they mean in addition to Euston ?

[brommy]

was talk of one option being to start hs2 from Heathrow .. or did they mean in addition to Euston ?

I believe Heathrow would be/was in addition to the Euston terminal. I haven't read the detail of the HS2 proposal and current agreement so have the following questions for those who have!

Is the Heathrow connection still proposed?

Where is the connection at Birmingham International going to be (a new station?)? Living just a minute from M42 junction 1, I currently use the M42 and park up at B'ham Int. which takes just 20 minutes and saves the time/connection hassle of the journey in to New Street.

What is the predicted travel time from B'ham Int. to Euston?

Will there be a through service to HS1 and Paris/Brussels albeit with perhaps a 20 minute turnaround at St. Pancras Int.?

Will I be able to use it with my staff privelige pass - any clue Rev?

[PauloBarnesi]

Will I be able to use it with my staff privelige pass - any clue Rev?

By the time its built you may well be in a very different job

[The_Rev]

Dunno about priv passes. A couple of blokes I work with have Priv season tickets on HS1 between London and Chatham I think. They certainly travel on it, though I guess their tickets might be ex BR residential seasons. Either way, worry about it in 15 years.

[VillaChris]

Well, it is a five minute walk (literally) from there to New Street Station. I dare say you would probably get the same connecting train to Lichfield whether you arrived at New Street or at the new terminal. Building the station where it is practical is the main priority here and I think that spot is probably as good as you are going to get. It is as central as New Street station is, and the argument you make about the new station not being ideal for you because you have to get back to Lichfield could just as easily be made by somebody who has to get back to Stourbridge or Solihull if the trains did arrive on new platforms at New Street.

That reminds me of a programme BBC did a few months ago on HS2. The main campaigner against HS2 Jerry Marshall I think, was at Curzon Street and he couldn't even find new street, took him 20 minutes to go there! Don't know if he is a brummie or not but dosen't really reflect well on him that?!

I imagine some sort of mono-rail/tram system will get built as it's quite a steep uphill walk to get to new street so wouldn't be great for people with luggage.