hs2 Waste of Money or not?

[CI]

Running directly behind my parents house.  There goes my inheritance!

Oh it's all me me me isn't it

[PauloBarnesi]

We can engineer like the Victorians; look at Cross Rail; bloody impressive.

As amazingly impressive Crossrail is, it won't be built as the Victorians would have; the lives of a few dozen construction workers will be spared!

Look at the Carlisle/Settle and Woodhead tunnels; death amongst the navvies was really pretty casually thrown away.

 

Anyway £32 billion on Crossrail. 

 

We are spending £67.5 billion plus on cleaning up Sellafield

 

How much money has been misspent on the whole nuclear programme?

[hogso]

So is the proposed route going straight through Bodymoor Heath (the training ground, not just the 'heath') or just skirting it, or what? Nose in my office came over and had a laugh about it this morning, but I hadn't heard anything about it.

[Genie]

So is the proposed route going straight through Bodymoor Heath (the training ground, not just the 'heath') or just skirting it, or what? Nose in my office came over and had a laugh about it this morning, but I hadn't heard anything about it.

 

Might explain why we spent so little on the team in recent times if Randy is having to budget for a complete new training complex.

 

(I think it would have made the news if the route took it thorugh the training ground)

[Ron Burgundy]

I'd like if you could elaborate on some of those points Ron. I'm especially curious about sweeping statements re: entire network needing upgrading to HS2 standards, all the rolling stock needing upgrading, branch lines and the fact that we cant engineer like the Victorians.  It's quite a lot more difficult to get shit done today because unlike Victorian times, a brown paper bag stuffed with a huge bribe is not how we do business any more despite what the public perception is. 

 

 

I don’t think I made my point properly.

 

Basically we need to think bigger.

 

The HS network is all well and good, but the rest of our network is poor.

 

Why can’t we have all mainlines made up the HS spec? (I know the cost would be enormous) but come on UK PLC lets go balls to the wall!

 

What can’t we re-open all redundant / derelict lines. I know the village I live in would benefit greatly.

 

My point about the Victorians was that they over-engineered everything. Look at Armstrong’s Tyne Bridge, Barlow’s work on the Manchester and Birmingham line, Bazalgette’s sewers, all of Brunel’s work, Greathead's work, Telford’s aqueduct,  I could go on.

 

My point is there buildings, bridges, tunnels etc. have lasted 100’s of years through change that could not have been anticipated. They have gone above and beyond what they were originally designed for.

 

Nowadays we embark on projects that have a shelf life of 30, 40 50 years max. We do things on a piecemeal basis rather than seeing the bigger picture.

 

If you work in an office look out of you window and look at how many buildings from the 60’s and 70’s are being torn down for new office blocks. I bet in 30 years they will be tearing them down again.

 

Wasteful, naïve, pointless.

 

I think the HS2 will be great for Brum but its small beer and we need to think bigger.

 

[AshVilla]

Waste of money

 

Being able to catch a train is slowly becoming a luxury with increasing fares

 

By the time its finally built people will probably not be able to afford it anyway and have no reason to commute using it because they don't have a job anyway

[Ron Burgundy]

We dont make anything with the intenation of it being the best in the world anymore.

 

We make things on the basis of how cheap can we make it and how many we can sell.

[mjmooney]

We dont make anything with the intenation of it being the best in the world anymore.

 

We make things on the basis of how cheap can we make it and how many we can sell.

If that were true of train tickets, we'd have a rail network that people might use.

[blandy]

We dont make anything with the intenation of it being the best in the world anymore.

 

We make things on the basis of how cheap can we make it and how many we can sell.

Well said. it's a reflection of the way the financial aspect of work, projects, thinking etc. has come to be taken as more important than the actual technical and engineering aspects.  The cost of everything and the value of nothing...

[Ron Burgundy]

I'd like if you could elaborate on some of those points Ron. I'm especially curious about sweeping statements re: entire network needing upgrading to HS2 standards, all the rolling stock needing upgrading, branch lines and the fact that we cant engineer like the Victorians.  It's quite a lot more difficult to get shit done today because unlike Victorian times, a brown paper bag stuffed with a huge bribe is not how we do business any more despite what the public perception is. 

 

 

I don’t think I made my point properly.

 

Basically we need to think bigger.

 

The HS network is all well and good, but the rest of our network is poor.

 

Why can’t we have all mainlines made up the HS spec? (I know the cost would be enormous) but come on UK PLC lets go balls to the wall!

 

What can’t we re-open all redundant / derelict lines. I know the village I live in would benefit greatly.

 

My point about the Victorians was that they over-engineered everything. Look at Armstrong’s Tyne Bridge, Barlow’s work on the Manchester and Birmingham line, Bazalgette’s sewers, all of Brunel’s work, Greathead's work, Telford’s aqueduct,  I could go on.

 

My point is there buildings, bridges, tunnels etc. have lasted 100’s of years through change that could not have been anticipated. They have gone above and beyond what they were originally designed for.

 

Nowadays we embark on projects that have a shelf life of 30, 40 50 years max. We do things on a piecemeal basis rather than seeing the bigger picture.

 

If you work in an office look out of you window and look at how many buildings from the 60’s and 70’s are being torn down for new office blocks. I bet in 30 years they will be tearing them down again.

 

Wasteful, naïve, pointless.

 

I think the HS2 will be great for Brum but its small beer and we need to think bigger.

 

 

Also im not sure about the Victorians being corrupt in any significant way. Altough im open to being educated. I thought major infrastructure projects in those days were at the behest of the Government and undertaken by specific urban corporations (local board or whatever you want to call it), a bit like a modern day Quango, with someone like Thomas Telford at the helm. I would bet that there is far more brown paper bag stuff going on nowadays! ha!

[bickster]

The Victorians required an act of Parliament to build a railway (can you see where the brown paper bags might come in? )Bribing politicians was huge, with the canal owners etc bribing against the rail companies too but it was essentially a free market with added bribery and huge payoffs to the landowners because they knew they could hold the companies to ransom. The Victorians actually went Railway investment crazy and there were many that lost huge sums as investments collapsed, Rail Pioneers went from heros to zeros overnight and some even ended up in jail from where they only got out in a box

Unlike now though, Britain wasn't a nation of homeowners, the landlords made all the money and the householders just got evicted. It's a much much tougher process these days

[CI]

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

[bickster]

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

 

The WCML is absolutely full to capacity, it is not just about speed its about need

[PauloBarnesi]

George Hudson?

[Ron Burgundy]

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

 

I think its a psychological thing - say you can get somewhere in under an hour from London and it looks/sounds/feels good

[bickster]

George Hudson?

yup

[CI]

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

 

I think its a psychological thing - say you can get somewhere in under an hour from London and it looks/sounds/feels good

I have no issue with that. Just throttle down in the Pendelino a bit more or chip the engines rather than spending £18bn on a whole new system

[bickster]

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

 

I think its a psychological thing - say you can get somewhere in under an hour from London and it looks/sounds/feels good

Not in this instance, its a speed plus capacity thing. If Birmingham Airport is to expand, the WCML needs huge extra capacity especially to that there London. It also helps to sell BHX as being under an hour from Central London for sure (the Underground is almost that from Heathrow)

But I do agree with the point that whole network needs upgrading as well. Relaying former railways that Beeching scrapped opening up new routes oh and nationalising the whole shebang again

[bickster]

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

 

I think its a psychological thing - say you can get somewhere in under an hour from London and it looks/sounds/feels good

I have no issue with that. Just throttle down in the Pendelino a bit more or chip the engines rather than spending £18bn on a whole new system

The motive power isn't the limiting speed factor on railways, its the network itself. The Mallard did 125mph (the current rail speed limit on normal HS tracks) 20 years before steam was phased out. Guess what they are speeding the network up, that is how you get from A to B faster. That is how you get greater speed, you can't chip an engine or put the throttle down. Just like roads, rails have speed limits based on how safe it is to go on that section.

Maybe one of these days, you'll read other peoples posts, do some research yourself and be a little more informed before you press post. Well we can hope

[PauloBarnesi]

 

 

I don't get the b'ham to London part. It's pretty fast anyhow

B'ham to Manchester is fairly wank though

 

I think its a psychological thing - say you can get somewhere in under an hour from London and it looks/sounds/feels good

 

I have no issue with that. Just throttle down in the Pendelino a bit more or chip the engines rather than spending £18bn on a whole new system

 

The motive power isn't the limiting speed factor on railways, its the network itself. The Mallard did 125mph (the current rail speed limit on normal HS tracks) 20 years before steam was phased out. Guess what they are speeding the network up, that is how you get from A to B faster. That is how you get greater speed, you can't chip an engine or put the throttle down. Just like roads, rails have speed limits based on how safe it is to go on that section.

Maybe one of these days, you'll read other peoples posts, do some research yourself and be a little more informed before you press post. Well we can hope

I believe it was 30 years actually; and seeing that you actually went on the fifteen guinea special you should remember