briny_ear Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I cant get my head round the complete arse he and Lerner made of it If getting a club that had been going nowhere with a deeply mediocre squad to 6th for 3 seasons running plus a Wembley final is making a "Complete arse" of things I'd love to know how you'd describe the performance of managers who have regularly achieved much less over the period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I cant get my head round the complete arse he and Lerner made of it If getting a club that had been going nowhere with a deeply mediocre squad to 6th for 3 seasons running plus a Wembley final is making a "Complete arse" of things I'd love to know how you'd describe the performance of managers who have regularly achieved much less over the period. Before I say this I want to reaffirm that I am a MON fan and I have nothing against Lerner. I realise that people make mistakes. While 6th and Cup finals are admirable achievements, when you consider the money that was spent/wasted and the repercussions we are currently enduring - 6th for 3 seasons and a wembley final is to me, of little significance. Lets not beat about the bush - they got it wrong. The consequences were potentially (luckily for us someone - who i believe was Faulkner - put a stop to it) far more severe than the achievements were great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted February 4, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted February 4, 2012 The strange thing now, is that MON would be the absolute perfect manager for us at the minute. Little investment, a good squad that are just lacking direction/confidence. It's a shame we already appointed him and gave him a shot at spending heavily. As much as I hate the bloke, I do wonder how much better the squad would be had we hired someone like Harry Redknapp instead of MON at the time that Lerner took over. (Okay, we'd still be skint, but at least the money would have gone to Harrys off-shore accounts rather than the wage bill) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC1874 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 When people say Martin O Neill can only take you so far, generally in his career this has been pretty much as far as that club could expect, or very close to it. Maybe he could have won the UEFA Cup and won the title every season in Scotland, and with Villa maybe he could have won a cup and got that 4th place. This is a glittering career though and if he gets Sunderland a cup or UEFA football their fans will have some of their best supporting years under him I can see why people don't like him for why he left, although personally i don't tend to agree with the reasons i hear. I can also see why people feel we overspent on average players under him, but personally i don't see how blame is laid at a manager and not chairman for this Wycombe - Left them 2 leagues higher up and in the football league for the first time ever Leicester - Got them promoted. Left them 8th in Premiership after 2 league cup wins, UEFA Cup football and 4 successive top ten finishes. Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row l Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC1874 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Also when people moan about what has happened its worth remembering it was a great few years. People can say about we only got 6th place and never won anything, but in getting it we had brilliant times - 7 away wins on the bounce, beat Blues every time, away wins at Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs, chance for us to go to Prague and Hamburg etc and see Ajax at Villa park, 2 Wembley trips, Blackburn 6-4. semi final. Chelsea 4-4, Everton away last minute, Bolton 5-1, the Chelsea win in his first season, the Sheffield United anniversary game, Derby away 6-0, Blues 5-1, day we sent Newcastle down, Mellbergs last game when we qualified for Europe at West Ham, 4-0 wins away at Blackburn and Wigan. List could go on to be honest Maybe we could have got 4th, could have won the cup, could have not signed certain players, broken teams down better at home etc, but despite all that it was 4 seasons that had loads of excitement throughout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Wycombe - Left them 2 leagues higher up and in the football league for the first time ever Leicester - Got them promoted. Left them 8th in Premiership after 2 league cup wins, UEFA Cup football and 4 successive top ten finishes. Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row l Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons This is why its only a small group of villa fans that think he is shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Since returning to management no other club has picked up more points than Sunderland. should look up that stat again I did, try reading. I find the MON hate pretty funny. In the whole world of football its just a small group of bitter villa fans that hate him. Neutral fans, most pundits, other managers, lots of ex players all think he is quality. But yes they're all wrong and the few on here are obviously right I would imagine sunderland fans would be pretty happy if they consistently finished top 7/8 and got into europe. Its certainly a better future than us at the moment. I think you'll find that a fair few neutral fans don't think he's that great a manager. Of course they're not going to hate him but I wouldn't expect them to as he wouldn't have left a club they support in the shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Two excellent recent posts in the thread by AVFC1874. You clearly know your football mate and are bang on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super-Villan Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I also think the idea that we spent enough money to get 4th place is completely untrue. We spent a lot, but considering the base we started from and the quality of 4/5 other teams (even before Man City got their cash) we were competing against, it was never that likely. If Randy and/or MON thought otherwise then fine, but I think they underestimated the situation if they did, and quite considerably. I think 6th place was pretty much exactly right considering how much we spent. The change in the economic climate and the rise of Man City were spanners in the works for us though, and we're still paying for the fact that the club didn't have any contingency for that kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted February 4, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted February 4, 2012 Wycombe - Left them 2 leagues higher up and in the football league for the first time ever Leicester - Got them promoted. Left them 8th in Premiership after 2 league cup wins, UEFA Cup football and 4 successive top ten finishes. Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row l Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons This is why its only a small group of villa fans that think he is shit. Correct - only an idiot would think he's shit. Though, a large group of Villa fans dont think he's half as good as you seem to think he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaAlex Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Wycombe - Left them 2 leagues higher up and in the football league for the first time ever Leicester - Got them promoted. Left them 8th in Premiership after 2 league cup wins, UEFA Cup football and 4 successive top ten finishes. Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row l Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons This is why its only a small group of villa fans that think he is shit. Correct - only an idiot would think he's shit. Though, a large group of Villa fans dont think he's half as good as you seem to think he is. Again well said. The twisting of words and made up statements in here are unbelievable. One person at best has probably called MON 'shit' and at the same time nobody really claims that he is the messiah. If people are going to have an argument they could at least bring up points that are remotely true rather then bring them up to try and strengthen their argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons Not to mention a 100% winning record against small health Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I also think the idea that we spent enough money to get 4th place is completely untrue. We spent a lot, but considering the base we started from and the quality of 4/5 other teams (even before Man City got their cash) we were competing against, it was never that likely. If Randy and/or MON thought otherwise then fine, but I think they underestimated the situation if they did, and quite considerably. I think 6th place was pretty much exactly right considering how much we spent. The change in the economic climate and the rise of Man City were spanners in the works for us though, and we're still paying for the fact that the club didn't have any contingency for that kind of thing. Bang on. Just to add during our three 6th place finishes we had the 8th, 6th and 6th highest wage bill. We finished pretty much exactly where you'd expect us to. O'Neill didn't do a great job far from it. He did a good job though especially when you consider what his predecessors have done. The whole club was different when he was here. We rode a mini wave for a while. The first time in almost 60 years that we'd averaged over 40k and two other seasons where attendances were the highest they had been since the early 50's and one of those was a season when we had two cup runs that fans also had to fork out for. I dare say there is not a Villa fan that wouldn't now at the price of the sixth highest wage bill have us finishing 6th, a couple of trips to Wembley and average attendances around 40k . Lerner must have had his reasons for sacking him but its a shame it couldn't have all been resolved. In all fairness no one would now give a shit though had it not been for the two very poor appointments that have followed his departure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 He did a good job though especially when you consider what his predecessors have done.Really? When you consider DOL and Gregory equaled his highest finish (with the latter also getting to a cup final), with Little and Atkinson beating his best finish AND winning a trophy each, all under more difficult ownership, it's clear that when compared to his predecessors MON doesn't look at that good at all. Our best three Premier League managers were without doubt Atkinson, Little and Gregory. The rest are all way below them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons Not to mention a 100% winning record against small health We had a fantastic record against all the local sides when he was here. Sadly that all went to shit under Houllier losing to Sha, WBA and Wolves in the same season for the first time in over 50 years. Hopefully the recent win against Wolves will be the first step on righting that wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyOne Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons Not to mention a 100% winning record against small health We had a fantastic record against all the local sides when he was here. Sadly that all went to shit under Houllier losing to Sha, WBA and Wolves in the same season for the first time in over 50 years. Hopefully the recent win against Wolves will be the first step on righting that wrong. Erm, we defeated Wolves away last season as well. And it's not exactly improving under McLeish seeing as we lost against WBA at home. When was the last time that happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons Not to mention a 100% winning record against small health We had a fantastic record against all the local sides when he was here. Sadly that all went to shit under Houllier losing to Sha, WBA and Wolves in the same season for the first time in over 50 years. Hopefully the recent win against Wolves will be the first step on righting that wrong. Erm, we defeated Wolves away last season as well. And it's not exactly improving under McLeish seeing as we lost against WBA at home. When was the last time that happened? Like I said hopefully the win against Wolves was the FIRST STEP on putting another unbeaten run together in derby games and another run of 50 odd years of not losing to all three local sides in the same season. Given that we haven't and can't lose to Wolves or Sha this season then we are one season in to that run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I seem to recall us drawing both times against Wolves when they first came up in 09/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaAlex Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Celtic - Took over when Rangers had won 11 out the last 12 titles. Broke the dominance and won 3 of the next 5 including a domestic treble and got to a UEFA Cup final. Won 7 old firm games in a row Villa - 3 successive top 6 finishes, most points in 15 seasons Not to mention a 100% winning record against small health We had a fantastic record against all the local sides when he was here. Sadly that all went to shit under Houllier losing to Sha, WBA and Wolves in the same season for the first time in over 50 years. Hopefully the recent win against Wolves will be the first step on righting that wrong. Erm, we defeated Wolves away last season as well. And it's not exactly improving under McLeish seeing as we lost against WBA at home. When was the last time that happened? Like I said hopefully the win against Wolves was the FIRST STEP on putting another unbeaten run together in derby games and another run of 50 odd years of not losing to all three local sides in the same season. Given that we haven't and can't lose to Wolves or Sha this season then we are one season in to that run. League results were poor with the two draws, but in the cup v SHA we battered them with an injury hit side but they got a huge amount of luck. Harsh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 While 6th and Cup finals are admirable achievements, when you consider the money that was spent/wasted and the repercussions we are currently enduring - 6th for 3 seasons and a wembley final is to me, of little significance. Well, we spent around the 6th highest amount in the premier league and we got to 6th place three times so I question the judgment that this money was "wasted". When you think of some of the stars we got into the squad, it was a pretty good time to be a Villa fan. Lerner couldn't sustain it, though, could he? So we have just been through a spell of "boom and bust". I would far rather Lerner had managed the money more realistically but you can hardly blame MON for spending what he was given to try to achieve the objective of challenging the top 4. He's at a club now where it looks like the chairman has a better grasp on financial reality and, for those who say MON only takes jobs where he is in complete control of the money side, note carefully that this has NOT happened at Sunderland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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