Oslo bombing and Utøya massacre

[mjmooney]

Very good - albeit grim and sobering - program about Oslo/Utøya on British TV last night, BTW.

[Jon]

Very good - albeit grim and sobering - program about Oslo/Utøya on British TV last night, BTW.

I saw it on my Korean Samsung TV, but it was still good

[Awol]

Islam is free from criticism? Is it balls. It's as much a sham as any other religion, it's problem is a refusal to look in on itself. Increasing secularisation in the middle-east will change that but for now we are stuck with a very dogmatic, patriarchal syatem that allows for extremists to grow.

My bold: I presume you don't mean in this century? If anything religion is taking an even deeper hold of the middle east, which given the starting point of being central to daily existence is pretty incredible.

The "successful" Arab spring revolts have produced religiously motivated replacements vying to take the place of the old regimes, held in check solely by the various national armies.

The role of religion is on the up and up in the Muslim world and to suggest otherwise is simply wrong.

[PauloBarnesi]

his hateful views than those who were doing so in Finsbury Park, or Westminster Abbey.

Finsbury Park? or Finsbury Park Mosque?

And can you point me to the “hateful views” from Westminster Abbey?

[Eames]

his hateful views than those who were doing so in Finsbury Park, or Westminster Abbey.

Finsbury Park? or Finsbury Park Mosque?

And can you point me to the “hateful views” from Westminster Abbey?

I meant the Mosque but couldn't be asked to type it.

As for the hateful views from Westminster Abbey, shall we start with.......

"Grotesque"Gay marriage will shame the UK in the eyes of the world

or

before I go onto Priests abusing children?

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Yeah it does seem that way, sadly. My point on secularisation was more in hope than expectation. Although I'm sure Egypt at least will become secuular, as they have a well educated middle class and there will be a few more revolutions yet before it settles down. Perhaps they will go a similar way to Turkey, with a secular government but regions of unofficial Sharia Law out in the sticks.

But I'm only judging from what see/read here, I'm sure yourself and others have a better reading on how religion is tightening it's grip in the gulf.

In context of the thread, the paranoia within right-wing circles on mainland Europe about Islamification are unfounded and I hope the media coverage of this trial doesn't become a debate on Islam in Europe but I wouldn't be surprised if groups like the EDL see it as a call to arms, so to speak.

[Awol]

What I find anomalous in the Norweigan situation is that, despite his crazy actions, everyone rushes to condemn Breivik's political platform, which, like it or not, is shared by tens of millions of our fellow Europeans. Yet Islam remains critism free, irrespective of its jihadist suicide bomers.

Agree. Brevik's deplorable and psychotic actions can be seperated from his political platform for the purposes of debate. Openly discussing the latter does not in any way imply approval of the former - for which he deserves to be put down like a dog.

[Awol]

Yeah it does seem that way, sadly. My point on secularisation was more in hope than expectation.

My expectation is that in 30 years or less the lands of Arabia and the Levant (minus Israel) will be a 100% infidel free zone.

Although I'm sure Egypt at least will become secuular, as they have a well educated middle class and there will be a few more revolutions yet before it settles down.

Egypt is going to either remain under military rule or fall to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Coptic Christians are currently - as predicted on another thread at the time - being religiously cleansed (murdered) and their churches burned to the ground. Radical Islam is winning in Egypt by a mile and it doesn't look like changing because the 'middle class' are easily intimidated by the murderous islamists.

In context of the thread, the paranoia within right-wing circles on mainland Europe about Islamification are unfounded and I hope the media coverage of this trial doesn't become a debate on Islam in Europe

If it isn't a problem then there is nothing to fear and everything to gain from having the debate. If your view is shown to be correct it will suck the life from groups like the EDL - and you see very sure you are right so it should be fine.

[PauloBarnesi]

As for the hateful views from Westminster Abbey, shall we start with.......

"Grotesque"Gay marriage will shame the UK in the eyes of the world

or

before I go onto Priests abusing children?

Westminster Abbey is an Anglican place of worship; you are confusing it with the Catholic place of worship, Westminster Cathedral, and priests tend to refer to people in the Catholic church.

I am presuming you are confused?

[mjmooney]

couldn't be asked

[Eames]

I'm having a mare here aren't I.

Right...... Wherever Catholics go in London - that big **** off church. The one who hates the gays. They can **** off.

As can all 8 typing fingers and 2 thumbs for failing me.

[Bazdavies79]

Anyone else hunks this nut job looks a bit like Guzan?

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

Anyone else hunks this nut job looks a bit like Guzan?

Is that a Freudian slip or some kind of street talk I'm not au fait with?

[A.J.Rimmer]

This is nonsense. "Tens of millions support Breivik's political platform"??? :shock:

And you believe that Islam remains criticism free? Above and beyond my usual militant atheism I have no quibble with Islam per se at all. I work with several Muslims, fine people all, despite their attachment to their imaginary friend.

But I have no time for psychopathic killers, whatever their pretext.

In years gone by I called myself a militant atheist, but to paraphrase Dawkins, I don't blow people up, and thus cannot be branded a 'militant'. I now call myself a 'devout' atheist.

Breivik's political platform, and I'm not keen to read his manifesto, is based on concern about immigration and the global problem of Islam. I share those concerns.

I do not agree that Islam comes in for the criticism it deserves. Without exception all the commentators I see tipeetoe around the subject for fear of giving offence.

All religion is all rooted in stupidity and ignorance. Indeed, it is difficult to see how any good can come from these prehistoric superstitions. We need a more modern, more reasoned and more scientific approach to our difficulties and we tolerate this religious rubbish at our peril. Unlike most, I believe we should condemn it for the poisonous nonsense it is at every available opportunity.

Incidentally it is children who have imaginary friends... Allah is a wholly different kettle of smelly fish.

But back to the original topic... perhaps it was Breivik's "repugnant" (word used by the BBC) christian views that led to the slaughter... for looking back down the ages, christians have been some of the most prolific killers in history... just look at the holocaust.

[A.J.Rimmer]

What I find anomalous in the Norweigan situation is that, despite his crazy actions, everyone rushes to condemn Breivik's political platform, which, like it or not, is shared by tens of millions of our fellow Europeans. Yet Islam remains critism free, irrespective of its jihadist suicide bomers.

Wat?

Have you not noticed the incredibly rough ride that everyday Muslims have had over the past 11 years or something?

No.

[Chindie]

Today's proceedings in the court seem to be largely aimed at discrediting Breivik and his claims. Theres been reports that some of the families of victims laughed at some of his answers today.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

You know that scene in Four Lions when the chap suggests to "bomb the mosque, radicalise the moderates, fastrack the end days"? He sounds like that.

[DeepDish]

Today's proceedings in the court seem to be largely aimed at discrediting Breivik and his claims. Theres been reports that some of the families of victims laughed at some of his answers today.

Today was shocking in the court, according to the media and other that was there. He was telling about his plans with pride and without any kind of remorse or emphaty for the victims. He was telling that he planned to chop off the head of Gro Harlem Brundtland (former PM and labour party leader) and the youth party leader, film the chopping and broadcast it on the Internet. He talked about plans to go hade three huge bombs in Oslo, but that he did not have enough fertilizer to make them, and his plan B was then to go on a killing spree.

His attorney is telling everyone that think today was bad to turn off the tv tomorrow and don't read the internet papers, as he will tell about the Utoya attack.

He seems proud and is growing when he tells about the plans and murders.

Some of the reporters and lawyers that is in the court to assist the victims cried when the prosecutors decided to take a break because of a "terrible atmosphere in the court".

Not sure if I gonna read reports tomorrow. The man is pure evil.

[Chindie]

Yes I've had the radio on most of the day, there was seemingly a clear switch in approach from yesterday, where they appear to have pushed him on some details of his background, and grounding, and made him somewhat uncomfortable and lead to him apparently giving some pathetic answers.

Today seems to have allowed him to talk more freely of his plans and it appears he prefers that. And of course it also allowed him to spout plans like murdering the Norwegian PM with a bayonet and releasing footage online, or how he had discovered that making a bomb was more difficult than he'd anticipated so chose to only make one and hoped to take out the entire government with it.

He's a supreme narcissist. He likes to talk about himself and what he would do and what he did do, and why he feels he needed to. I don't think he's evil. He's an extremist, with questionable views. He acted on his beliefs in horrific manner.

I'm interested in the case as it's rare you get to see a lone wolf terrorist (if you accept he is one, it's debatable), let alone have him stand trail and put it in stark terms what made him come to conclusion that mass murder was the best vehicle for his commentary.

Theres been a rather sad spin on the violent videogames thing from some corners of the media today too. HE apparently spent a year or so of his life obsessively playing WoW, and later CoD. Thats been spun into somehow being significant to what he did, with WoW being described as a 'violent war game' (this is a game, lets bear in mind, that will soon have an expansion featuring pandas as playable characters), and Cod allegedly helping him in commiting the Utoya massacre. Lets all forget he had firearms training and is clearly on the extreme end of the poltical spectrum, vidyagames is what did it!

[DeepDish]

I think a combination of the extreme narcissism, no emphaty and crazy political views that there is a Eurabia conspiracy maybe is more right than pure evil. But the outcome is pure evil, if you know what I mean.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Fjordman is a vitness. Here is a quote in the Fjordman/Gates of Vienna essay The Eurabia code:

“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague.” — Cicero, Roman statesman and lawyer

Never underestimate the effect that the words of people like Fjordman on the people with a twisted mind.

I am no fan of a big muslim immigration (mostly because I am an atheist, and think we need less religious people in my country, rather than more), but the idea of a conspiracy between European politicians and Arabians to create an Eurabia is crazy talk, and is bound to create hate and aggression. And when you put in the old Roman quotes of traitors, there should be no surprise that people who believe these things do bad things (though nobody would have expected such vile acts).