CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Disagree CarewsEyeBrowDesigner. Had we thrown the kids in after the last World cup, or even before, we would probably be struggling to qualify for major tournaments. I think football fans up and down the country deserve to see us play in summer tournaments, and writing off the Euros for a long term aim seems a little over simplified. I can't honestly say I'd be happy to miss out on watching us in the next euros because we're looking further into the future. I think the better option would be to keep the best of our youngsters in the U21's and bring them through together, like Germany did. Of course, you keep a few old heads to keep the cycle going. However, having big egos may damage the kids coming through, so it would be up to the manager to find the right balance. You qualify, put up a good show, and keep developing. However, it's moot. It didn't happen, and only now is Capello turning to youth because the old stagers are either crocked or not around anymore. It just seems a bit forced at the minute, and I don't really see a plan in place for the future, as in building a team that will peak at tournaments, instead of just throwing together the players from the top clubs in the hope that 2 + 2 = 4 on the eve of a tournament. And, as we've seen, that doesn't seem to work and nothing says that it will any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 No mate, we are top tier. We have won the World Cup. Holland have not. Portugal have not. We are one of the big boys in international football. in your case then Notts Forest must be a top 4 team England are a lower 2nd tier team and last world cup and Euros proved it We are top tier mate. We have won the World Cup - not many nations can say that - only 5 in Europe of which we are one. We have one of the strongest teams in European and world football. Top tier nations - Brazil, Germany, Italy, Argentina, France, Spain, England, Uruguay, Holland, Portugal Second tier nations - Ghana, Russia, Croatia, Sweden, Ivory Coast, Japan etc top tier nations at the moment are Germany, Spain, Holland, Uruguay, Brazil and maybe Argentina Tier 2 is Italy, Mexico, England, Portugal, France, Russia, Paraguay, Chile, Japan, Ghana and Croatia Tier 3 is Norway, Ireland, Slovakia, Colombia, USA, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, Czech Repub;ic etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 We are top tier. In club terms we would be a Top 4 club. We are always top seeds for the qualification process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 No mate, we are top tier. We have won the World Cup. Holland have not. Portugal have not. We are one of the big boys in international football. in your case then Notts Forest must be a top 4 team England are a lower 2nd tier team and last world cup and Euros proved it We are top tier mate. We have won the World Cup - not many nations can say that - only 5 in Europe of which we are one. We have one of the strongest teams in European and world football. Top tier nations - Brazil, Germany, Italy, Argentina, France, Spain, England, Uruguay, Holland, Portugal Second tier nations - Ghana, Russia, Croatia, Sweden, Ivory Coast, Japan etc Winning a tournament half a century ago doesn't give automatic top tier status forever, if that were the case then the Greeks and Danes would also be top tier going by your criteria. Holland, Portugal and the rest of the top tier teams you've mentioned would and have beaten England on a regular basis over the past few decades bar the odd freak result. Like I said, Russia, Sweden, Croatia and the like are Englands natural level these days, results suggest such. We are top tier. In club terms we would be a Top 4 club. We are always top seeds for the qualification process. If England were a PL side they'd be Liverpool, living off past glories, have an entitlement mentality and naively optimistic at the start of every new season/tournament. :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 We are top tier. In club terms we would be a Top 4 club. We are always top seeds for the qualification process. so are croatia and greece but your not saying they are top 4 team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 We are top tier. In club terms we would be a Top 4 club. We are always top seeds for the qualification process. so are croatia and greece but your not saying they are top 4 team. Croatia didn't even qualify for the last World Cup. And Greece didn't even get out of their group at the last World Cup. We also got further than France and Italy did in South Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shillzz Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Disagree CarewsEyeBrowDesigner. Had we thrown the kids in after the last World cup, or even before, we would probably be struggling to qualify for major tournaments. I think football fans up and down the country deserve to see us play in summer tournaments, and writing off the Euros for a long term aim seems a little over simplified. I can't honestly say I'd be happy to miss out on watching us in the next euros because we're looking further into the future. I think the better option would be to keep the best of our youngsters in the U21's and bring them through together, like Germany did. Of course, you keep a few old heads to keep the cycle going. However, having big egos may damage the kids coming through, so it would be up to the manager to find the right balance. You qualify, put up a good show, and keep developing. However, it's moot. It didn't happen, and only now is Capello turning to youth because the old stagers are either crocked or not around anymore. It just seems a bit forced at the minute, and I don't really see a plan in place for the future, as in building a team that will peak at tournaments, instead of just throwing together the players from the top clubs in the hope that 2 + 2 = 4 on the eve of a tournament. And, as we've seen, that doesn't seem to work and nothing says that it will any time soon. Agree with the 2nd paragraph and you're point in general, though perhaps differ in the way I'd go about it. Perhaps after a few years of sustained poorness, we may be able to go into a tournament whereby the nation's expectations aren't so cripplingly high that our performances suffer as a consquence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Like I said, Russia, Sweden, Croatia and the like are Englands natural level these days, results suggest such. All of which failed to even qualify for the last World Cup. And you say we are at their level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 All of which failed to even qualify for the last World Cup. you failed ot qualify for Euro 2008 and you say your a top 4 nation HAHAHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Like I said, Russia, Sweden, Croatia and the like are Englands natural level these days, results suggest such. All of which failed to even qualify for the last World Cup. And you say we are at their level Didn't they all make Euro 2008 though? Did England? Look I know it's tough for some England supporters to accept their place in the football pecking order, pretend I didn't say anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 If England were a PL side they'd be Liverpool, living off past glories, have an entitlement mentality and naively optimistic at the start of every new season/tournament. :winkold: So true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 If England were a PL side they'd be Liverpool, living off past glories, have an entitlement mentality and naively optimistic at the start of every new season/tournament. :winkold: So true. But everyone still regards Liverpool as a big club. Likewise England should still be regarded as a top nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 We are a top nation. A shit footballing nation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 If England were a PL side they'd be Liverpool, living off past glories, have an entitlement mentality and naively optimistic at the start of every new season/tournament. :winkold: So true. But everyone still regards Liverpool as a big club. Likewise England should still be regarded as a top nation. England are a 'top' football team in the same way Turkey, Croatia, Denmark, Russia, Greece, the Czech Rep. and Sweden are. After all these are teams which have in recent memory won, finished second and/or third in the big tournaments, far, far ahead of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 At international level, is there really that much that a top, top foriegn manager can add in such a short period of time that he is involved with the players? He can't improve any of our players' technique overnight, which is basically where we fall down. I quite like the way some of the other international teams have picked a former great player to take over regardless of previous managerial experience. Get someone with an infectious personality that will get the players enjoying playing for England. Give them the best coaching staff behind them to help them out. The problem is I can't think of too many former England players that fit the description, although I am personally quite fond of Stuart Pearce and the job he has done with the U21s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 The argument is should England, one of the larger footballing nations, have a foreign manager. You don't see it in Italy, Germany, Spain etc. (to my knowledge). Nope. Germany tend to go with the German manager/non German players option instead. Their top goalscorer and guy who nearly broke Ronaldo's world cup record is Mirsoslav Klose, a Polish guy who speaks Polish when he is at home with his wife and kids. Lukas Podolski, a player pushing 100 caps and 50 goals for the German national team at the tender age of 26 is another Polish guy with a Polish wife who speaks Polish at home and has chosen to raise his kids with Polish as their first language. But at least Germany dont have a foreign manager. How do you know Podoski and Klose speak Polish at home with their wife and kids? Also how do you know Podolski has chosen to raise his kids with Polish as their first language? Also I think Germany have only ever had 7 players play for them who were not born in Germany, which is not many. Probably less then England and Holland with all the Surinamese born players they have had over the years. Its well documented, journalists tend to ask questions you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 At international level, is there really that much that a top, top foriegn manager can add in such a short period of time that he is involved with the players? He can't improve any of our players' technique overnight, which is basically where we fall down. I quite like the way some of the other international teams have picked a former great player to take over regardless of previous managerial experience. Get someone with an infectious personality that will get the players enjoying playing for England. Give them the best coaching staff behind them to help them out. The problem is I can't think of too many former England players that fit the description, although I am personally quite fond of Stuart Pearce and the job he has done with the U21s. What about Guus Hiddink? did sterling work with S. Korea & Russia, less so with Turkey but could do quite well with England I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Ideally, any country's manager would be from their own country...but if there is a better manager available, you've got to get him, IMO. That said, I think plenty of good English managers have been passed over in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 In some ways this whole 'top tier' debate is as pointless as the big club debate. But I just think that world cup and euros combined England have only reached 1 final. That is shocking considering the quality players that have worn the shirt over the past 50 years. In terms of appearances in a final that would put England behind Germany, Italy, France, Spain, Holland, Portugal Czechs, Sweden and Hungary :shock: . One single world cup win is all England have to show on the international stage. And of course you have the 2 giants from south america plus uruguay who have done pretty well on the international stage. How can England be top tier, how can you put England on the same level as a country like Germany who have been in 7 world cup finals and 6 euro finals, or Brazil who have been in 7 world cup finals. England are not top tier even if they have won the world cup, just like Greece are not top tier even though they recently won the euro. Germany, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, Spain are top tier. England are on the 2nd level both now and historically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 As for the actual topic, I think it does not matter the nationality of the manager, as long as the players on the pitch are English. International football is about PLAYERS from one country playing against PLAYERS from another country. The management does not come into it. But I do think there are more then enough English managers of a good quality, so maybe next time let Harry or Pardew have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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