The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Glarmorgan]

Glamorgan . Do you really need a middle aged brummy to telly you stories about the land of milk and honey or would you like to save time and admit you are a complete and utter hypocrite right now ? 

 

Israel exists because the Israelites believed their imaginary deity promised it to them . All the persecution sob stories and tales of how secular some of you guys are does not change that fact . 

 

Your flag is a star of David FFS . You know which David I mean . The one from the story book that promised you guys a nice a bit of land .

 

Your nation is built upon religious bullshit . There is no denying that . 

So how can you have the audacity to say that you can't reason with the Muslims who act terribly because of the slightly different religious bullshit that they believe in ? 

 

How the hell can you not see how utterly mental that is? 

 

This "book" you are referring to is the reason for the location of current state of Israel. That is true - but the whole idea of Zionism was to build a home for the Jewish people who were, at the time, scattered all across Europe. Still, the people behind this idea were secular and not religious. The main idea was to preserve the Jewish people (there was a fear for the very existence of the Jewish people at that time) and that the only way to do so - is by settling the Jews in a country of their own. To emphasis this fact I will tell you of Theodore Herzl, one of the most important people in the creation of Zionism - brought up, back in 1903, the idea to establish the Jewish state in Uganda. In other words - this incredibly important person, saw the idea of the Jewish state more important than its location.

This all was a part of a huge national uprising throughout Europe - Greece trying to win independence from the Ottoman Empire, creation of a "Germany", uprising in the Balkan and so on. People wanted to live in their own countries, to be ruled by themselves and so on.

 

The Zionist convention voted against it, as it saw the ties of the Jewish people to their historic land.

 

After all, throughout the years - the Jews never tried to rebuild their homeland. Not during the middle ages, not during the renaissance. As long as there were no secular Jews - no attempts were made as it will hold the Messiah from dropping by for a cup of coffee. Only the secular Jews of Modern times brought this idea up.

 

I will not get into the entire history of the Zionist movement. I will also won't deny the roots of the Jewish religion in this state or its part in its existence. I will say that Israel was not created for religious reasons nor it was populated with a religious majority. Both my grandparents of my mothers side were born here, in the 1920's - my grandfather was an Atheist - as most of his friends at that time. The rest of my family, coming to Israel after the holocaust, were not religious. I think that if there was no antisemitism (in its modern form of the 1800's) and if there was no WWII - there wouldn't be a Jewish state. I guess most of the European Jews would sit still in their homelands, whether London, Berlin or Prague, enjoying a much easier life than settling in this difficult piece of land.

 

BTW, story book or not - the Tel Dan inscription, discovered in 1993, holds writing of the "house of David". That's history - not only religion.

[Brumerican]

Lots of stuff in religious scripture is historical. Its the supernatural guff that comes with it that perturbs me . Your nation exists because way back there were a group of humans who identified themselves as a unique collective, based solely on their shared beliefs in this supernatural horse shit .

If there were no Israelites there would probably be no Israel , but what do I know ? 

The 20th century politics that included Balfour , Herzl etc do not refute the fact that Israel is built on religious reasons . Judaism is a religion and the fact that there are secular Israelis nowadays is irrelevant . 

 

I will agree with you on one point though . It is impossible to reason with people who have been brainwashed . This dialogue is testament to that .

 

You think that Muslim soldier was nuts because he believed he needed his penis in heaven . I think anyone who believes they are entitled to land because a god promised it to them are equally as nuts . 

[DiegoD]

IMHO, the problem is not the threat groups such as ISIS post on the West. They have yet to fight a proper army and I genuinely think they will lose such a battle.

 

The problem, the real problem, is what stands behind such an organization - in other words - the ideas. The fact that citizens from the "enlightened west" see themselves fit to take part in such atrocities should raise a huge question mark over what's going on in these countries. How come a very liberal Britain produces hundreds if not thousands of people willing to do such acts. This is what should be worrying the west. There is no "Israel-Palestinian" problem in the UK, the Muslims are not harassed in any way. Why the hell some many of them come to hate the very place they live in?

 

And the idea of "they must be losers with no jobs" - this is a generalization you and us (in Israel) often do as it fits the way we see things. After all - why should a married man, with a steady income and a good health go such a dreadful path?

Well... they just do. They do because they were either manipulated, or are pure evil deep within, or... you can bring up any reason you see fit. I don't know the exact reason, but I will tell you than - during my army service, some 20 years back, we apprehended a Palestinian suicide bomber on his way to Tel Aviv. As he had the explosives on him - we had to undress him completely and then we saw that he had his penis wrapped in bandages. When asked for it - he told that he didn't want his penis to be damaged, so he'll be able to "use" it with the 72 virgins awaiting him up there...

 

So, you can try and rationalize as much as you want and bring the set of beliefs, but as soon as the 72 virgins come into the equation - this is your sign to leave rational west thinking aside and start getting used to the idea there are parts of the words where people think differently.

 

I really like the first half of your post because it actually raises some important questions. What draws people to these groups especially from countries where they should be having a good quality of life. Maybe if there was a serious discussion on why these groups keep popping up in the middle east we might be able to start trying to solve the problems instead of bombing the symptoms.

 

The second half of your post is just ridiculous. Christians, Jews and Muslims have all done terrible things in the name of religion.

[omariqy]

A secular Jew? Oxymoron no? So Israel was founded by non religious people on the basis of religious teachings. I'm confused ?

[maqroll]

Funny that the the countries in the title of this thread have practically gone completely unmentioned!

[TrentVilla]

You are right… an oddly Tunisa is in the news this morning

 

An armed militia alliance in Libya has captured Tripoli's international airport after a battle lasting nearly a month.

Islamist-affiliated forces from Misrata and other cities took over the airport from the Zintan militia, which has held it for three years.

Libya's new parliament, largely opposed to the Islamists, condemned the move.

Violence in Libya has surged recently between the rival groups who overthrew Muammar Gaddafi in the 2011 uprising.

The airport, Libya's largest, has been closed for over a month because of the fighting.

Hundreds have died since fighting broke out in Tripoli in July. Millions of dollars in damage has been caused to the airport.

'Sovereignty' at stake

Libya's new parliament, the House of Representatives, said the groups now in control of the airport were "terrorist organisations".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28916417

[Davkaus]

You are right… an oddly Tunisa is in the news this morning

 

These foreign countries all look the same to you, eh?

[TrentVilla]

Damn it, posting with a hangover

[Voinjama]

Ahhhh Tunisia and Libya ...same thing. 

[TrentVilla]

This is why I work for US military intelligence and bomber command.

[PompeyVillan]

I wish there was a simple answer to the question, why is there Islamic extremism in the UK? Our security services have been called into question. They're have not been many 'incidents, but extremism has festered.

Sharia law will never comfortably co exist with our legal system because it contravenes many of our western ideals of human rights. I'm not sure to what extent it does exist in this country but I should imagine contemporary interpretations of Sharia law are illegal on almost every level.

[Glarmorgan]

A secular Jew? Oxymoron no? So Israel was founded by non religious people on the basis of religious teachings. I'm confused ?

 

This is not an oxymoron, as a person does not have to follow religious beliefs to be declared a member of a specific religion. This fact was made very clear by all who persecuted the Jews in recent times - especially the German Jews. The Nazis showed no interests in the fact many of them declared themselves as "Atheists".

I am a Jew, first and foremost, because my mother is Jewish. This is how things work, just as a baby is Muslim only because his father is. I can renounce my religion, but I see no point in doing so - the past beliefs of my ancestors, the history of the Jewish people - I am part of it and I will not give it up, even if it is not only a thing of a culture. 

 

As I said - most of the people who signed the Israeli deceleration of Independence were not religious Jews. Israel was formed not because of religious reasons, but mainly as a response to the terrible trauma our people went through in WWII. This is why it took place only in 1948 and not before that. The Jewish people, the Zionist movement, saw the Jewish state as the only solution for keeping the integrity of the Jewish people and to keep them safe, as the governments of Europe proved they are incapable of doing so. 

 

So yes - Israel holds some sort of a mixture between the old roots of the bible and the new, modern life, as nations, people, seek to live in a place of their own, being responsible for their destiny.

[TrentVilla]

I'm sorry, but its a religion not a race. You can't be of a religion and at the same time secular. 

[Brumerican]

I wouldn't waste your time Trent . You'll get maybe one line back that is sort of related to any point you raise and then 50 Lines of "look at how tough we have had it"

[LondonLax]

I wouldn't waste your time Trent . You'll get maybe one line back that is sort of related to any point you raise and then 50 Lines of "look at how tough we have had it"

I think you are being quite disrespectful to someone who has been one half of a very interesting discussion over the last few pages. He has been very patient putting forth an Israeli point of view in the face of an often hostile Villatalk crowd so there is no need to be rude.

It seems he is just saying that he is culturally Jewish but not religious, in the same way that many atheists in the west will still celebrate Christmas and Easter festivals without being Christians or even Pagans.

[Voinjama]

Ye I agree LondonLax.

[Brumerican]

I wouldn't waste your time Trent . You'll get maybe one line back that is sort of related to any point you raise and then 50 Lines of "look at how tough we have had it"

I think you are being quite disrespectful to someone who has been one half of a very interesting discussion over the last few pages. He has been very patient putting forth an Israeli point of view in the face of an often hostile Villatalk crowd so there is no need to be rude.

It seems he is just saying that he is culturally Jewish but not religious, in the same way that many atheists in the west will still celebrate Christmas and Easter festivals without being Christians or even Pagans.

Fair enough. I shall try and be more considered in future . I didn't realise I had even questioned whether you can be secular yet still join in with religious traditions ?

Apologies for any disrespect ,hostility and rudeness towards anyone .

Edited August 24, 2014 by Brumerican

[maqroll]

This is why I work for US military intelligence and bomber command.

Nice deflection ; )

[Glarmorgan]

I'm sorry, but its a religion not a race. You can't be of a religion and at the same time secular. 

 

I think that the main problem preventing me from explaining myself thoroughly is the fact I have to use English rather than Hebrew...

 

I understand your difficulties to understand my point. After all, there are several religious beliefs and Jewish is one of them. That is perfectly right. So what makes me, us, gather under the Jewish flag without being religious Jews? There are several reasons, but I think the most important one is the fact that even though the power of religion decreased with time, and even though the modern times saw the uprising of rational thought, philosophy and science - not to mention human rights and the power of the individual: at the end, a certain person was persecuted only because his ancestors were Jewish. This happened in western Europe, this happened in eastern Europe (especially in Ukraine), this happened in Arab countries in the middle east and this happened in the British mandate of Palestine, during the Arab revolts.

 

All this, at the end, brought many of the Jews to realize that it does not matter whether they consider themselves to be religious or not. It does not matter whether they see themselves as "Syrians", "Polish" or "Germans" (many of the German Jews who were killed by the Nazis fought for Germany in WW I). Nothing really matters  -at the end - you are considered a Jew. Nothing more and nothing less and due to this - we will never be completely safe, regardless of our level of belief or nationality. This allowed the most religious Jews of Poland and Russia gather under one flag with the most secular of Jews, whose connection with Jewishness is zero. One thing was made clear after WWII - God is someone you are happy to have on your side, but he cannot really help unless an army stands next to him to help him out

[Glarmorgan]

 

I wouldn't waste your time Trent . You'll get maybe one line back that is sort of related to any point you raise and then 50 Lines of "look at how tough we have had it"

I think you are being quite disrespectful to someone who has been one half of a very interesting discussion over the last few pages. He has been very patient putting forth an Israeli point of view in the face of an often hostile Villatalk crowd so there is no need to be rude.

It seems he is just saying that he is culturally Jewish but not religious, in the same way that many atheists in the west will still celebrate Christmas and Easter festivals without being Christians or even Pagans.

 

 

I thank you for this post