The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

 

Report: Hamas offers Israel 10 conditions for a 10 year truce

Ira Glunts on July 16, 2014 86

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“Hamas” graffiti in the West Bank, 2006. (Photo: Wikipedia)

Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions. The Jerusalem Post reports, based on an Israeli Channel 2 newscast, that Azmi Bishara announced the proposal on Al Jazeera television today.   Bishara, a former Israeli Knesset member, fled Israel in 2007 after being accused of spying for Hezbollah. He is currently living in Qatar where he is a high level government advisor.

According to Ma’ariv (Hebrew) these are the conditions:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html

 

 

Omar, as the Egyptians said - these terms fit a peace agreement and not a truce for 10 years (and maybe I should say "only 10 years").

 

What should be asked is - if the Hamas is so concerned to the lives of the Gazans, why would they offer a truce for 10 years and not, let's say, 25? 40? 100? They have no territorial claims (Israel withdrew all its forces from Gaza) - why wouldn't they go all the way? Hmmm...

[Davkaus]

They probably just couldn't think of another 15-85 conditions.

[bickster]

Peace agreement, truce. Means the same thing. If you have a ten year truce, you have a peace agreement.

That one really is semantics.

[Glarmorgan]

And in regard to to the indiscriminate massacre:

 

 

 

Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures By Anthony ReubenHead of statistics, BBC News

 

Continue reading the main story

Mid-East crisis

• Human cost
• Under fire
• Faces from Gaza
• Children in conflict

War zones are not easy places to collect statistics.

In the Gaza conflict, most news organisations have been quoting from the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), which leads a group of humanitarian organisations known as the Protection Cluster.

Its recent report said that as of 6 August, 1,843 Palestinians had been killed and 66 Israelis and one Thai national since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge on 8 July.

Of those Palestinians, the status of 279 could not be identified, at least 1,354 were civilians, including 415 children and 214 women, the UN body reported.

So there were 216 members of armed groups killed, and another 725 men who were civilians. Among civilians, more than three times as many men were killed as women, while three times as many civilian men were killed as fighters.

The UN report carries a caveat with its figures: "Data on fatalities and destruction of property is consolidated by the Protection and Shelter clusters based on preliminary information, and is subject to change based on further verifications."

There has been some research suggesting that men in general are more likely to die in conflict than women, although no typical ratio is given.

Nonetheless, if the Israeli attacks have been "indiscriminate", as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women.

Matthias Behnk, from OHCHR, told BBC News that the organisation would not want to speculate about why there had been so many adult male casualties, adding that because they were having to deal with a lot of casualties in a short time, they had "focused primarily on recording the casualties".

"As such, we have not at this stage conducted a detailed analysis of trends of civilian casualties, for example in relation to the reasons why different groups are affected and the types of incidents, but hope to carry this out at some point in the coming future," he said.

"However, even in the compiling of these preliminary figures, we cross-verify between different sources, not only media and several different human rights organisations, but also use other sources, including, for example, names of alleged fighters released by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and notices by armed groups in Gaza claiming someone as a member."

A number of other news organisations have been considering the civilian-to-fighter ratio.

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."

The list of names and ages of the dead published by al-Jazeera also found men aged between 20 and 29 to be significantly overrepresented.

The IDF say they have killed at least 253 Hamas operatives, 147 Islamic Jihad operatives, 65 "operatives of various organisations" and 603 "operatives whose affiliation is unknown", although they also stress that this is not a final number.

Spokesman Capt Eytan Buchman told BBC News that "the UN numbers being reported are, by and by large, based on the Gaza health ministry, a Hamas-run organisation".

He said that part of the reason for the discrepancy between the figures was "when militants are brought to hospitals, they are brought in civilian clothing, obscuring terrorist affiliations".

"Hamas also has given local residents directives to obscure militant identities," he said.

"It's important to bear in mind that in Operation Cast Lead [the last Israeli ground offensive in December 2008-January 2009], Hamas and Gaza-based organisations claimed that only 50 combatants were killed, admitting years later the number was between 600-700, a figure nearly identical to the figure claimed by the IDF."

In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures - their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to revision.

But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

[Glarmorgan]

Peace agreement, truce. Means the same thing. If you have a ten year truce, you have a peace agreement.

That one really is semantics.

 

Have you ever heard of a peace agreement with an expiry date? Why would one want to put a deadline peace?

 

And to freshen your memory up - Israel and Hamas agreed on a 72 hour truce last week. The truce deadline was Friday, 8am Israel time. Hamas launched lockets at 8:01am.

 

In other words, by your "semantics" definition, Hamas and Israel peace agreement lasted the exact time agreed on in the first place. 1 minute after this deadline, the peace agreement became obsolete, despite no hostile acts from Israel. What will happen when the 10 year goal expires?

 

Beside - you're keep talking in European terms. Peace agreement and truce work differently in the middle east. For instance - Israel has a peace agreement with Egypt and Jordan but only a cease fire with Syria. You can say - well, you are not at war with any of these nations and you would be right. Still, Syria, unlike Jordan and Egypt, use, finance, train and arm terrorist groups aiming to fight Israel, such as Hizbulla.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[Xann]

 

 

 

 

This graph attempts to equate an attempted poke in the chest to an actual smack on the head with a lump hammer.

[chrisp65]

 

 

 

 

 

This graph attempts to equate an attempted poke in the chest to an actual smack on the head with a lump hammer.

 

 

stones thrown vs streets levelled

[Glarmorgan]

OK. You need to understand the reality in the Israeli cities and towns in the south, close to the Gaza strip. In settlement such as Kfar Aza - they have about 15 seconds to get into the shelter after hearing the siren.

 

Now, lucky for Israel, we invested a lot of money into defense systems, but above that - since Saddam Hussein launched his rockets at us in 1991 - every new house built has to include a safe room. Due to this the civilian casualties are minimal. Still - every rocket launched towards Israel forces thousands to flee into the safe room within a period of time of 15 seconds. If you go a bit north, to the city of Ashqelon (population of about 120,000) and Ashdod (about 240,000) - you get two large cities which citizens have 30-60 seconds to get into the safe room. In total, I guess that around 400,000 citizens (mind you the entire population of Israel is 8 Million) is under threat or rockets.

 

So - yes, no deaths, thanks to the Israelis who keep their heads down, but this is not a way to live a life.

[YLN]

The problem with Syria and Iraq is that the people involved refuse to engage fully with the narrative like they did in Israel. We, the first world onlookers, will only maintain an interest in an ongoing conflict provided there are regular updates that provoke outrage, with a very clear villain. In Israel we had daily rockets fired and Americans had seemingly succumbed to propaganda and were supporting the villain. This was absolute gold and really kept our interest. The current ceasefire has dampened our enthusiasm greatly, and we're looking to Iraq now. There is appetite for passionate anger against a war monger and we will seek that to be satisfied.

 

Remember Boko Haram's big mistake that nearly cost him the nice little kidnap ring he had going. He got gluttonous. His group were kidnapping children on a regular basis, but one day kidnapped enough children to make a headline and grant him some infamy. So he vowed never to kidnap so many children on one day ever again and the world forgot because he would not commit to the narrative of a man kidnapping hundreds of children at a time. He would only do it piecemeal, and that wasn't front page material any more, so he became another African warlord that we would forget about in time despite the kidnap of young Nigerian girls being a constant threat, and the previously kidnapped girls remaining captive, or being sold as slaves.

 

Rather than everyone getting behind a cause temporarily while it is the flavour of the week, if we split into small sections that were responsible for remaining outraged for the ongoing humanitarian crises all over the world, our indignation would be much more likely to cause a positive change. Much in the same way that when a team is relegated from the Premier League they're forgotten about by the average football fan, once the fires of an initial story give way to actual discovery and scrutiny of the facts and background, we are more likely to prefer a newer more alarming piece of news that, initially at least requires less in the way of actual analysis beyond absolute rancor for the villain.

[peterms]

OK. You need to understand the reality in the Israeli cities and towns in the south, close to the Gaza strip...

In total, I guess that around 400,000 citizens (mind you the entire population of Israel is 8 Million) is under threat or rockets.

 

So - yes, no deaths, thanks to the Israelis who keep their heads down, but this is not a way to live a life.

It's you who needs to understand the reality.

You are the occupying army. You live on stolen land, denying basic human rights to the people whose land and property you have stolen, whose livelihoods you destroy, whose children you routinely murder.

Please don't come this victim shite. It doesn't wash. You're not the victim, you're the jackbooted oppressors.

[Vive_La_Villa]

OK. You need to understand the reality in the Israeli cities and towns in the south, close to the Gaza strip...

In total, I guess that around 400,000 citizens (mind you the entire population of Israel is 8 Million) is under threat or rockets.

So - yes, no deaths, thanks to the Israelis who keep their heads down, but this is not a way to live a life.

It's you who needs to understand the reality.

You are the occupying army. You live on stolen land, denying basic human rights to the people whose land and property you have stolen, whose livelihoods you destroy, whose children you routinely murder.

Please don't come this victim shite. It doesn't wash. You're not the victim, you're the jackbooted oppressors.

So what are Israel meant to do? Give back the entire area and all move to America? There will never be a solution to this as long as the intentions of Hamas are to wipe out Israel.

[peterms]

For those interested in Isis, this from the LRB is worth reading.

As the attention of the world focused on Ukraine and Gaza, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (Isis) captured a third of Syria in addition to the quarter of Iraq it had seized in June. The frontiers of the new Caliphate declared by Isis on 29 June are expanding by the day and now cover an area larger than Great Britain and inhabited by at least six million people, a population larger than that of Denmark, Finland or Ireland...

[Rugeley Villa]

it will end up with america and possibly britain going to war again, i dont see how that wont happen.

[peterms]

OK. You need to understand the reality in the Israeli cities and towns in the south, close to the Gaza strip...

In total, I guess that around 400,000 citizens (mind you the entire population of Israel is 8 Million) is under threat or rockets.

So - yes, no deaths, thanks to the Israelis who keep their heads down, but this is not a way to live a life.

It's you who needs to understand the reality.

You are the occupying army. You live on stolen land, denying basic human rights to the people whose land and property you have stolen, whose livelihoods you destroy, whose children you routinely murder.

Please don't come this victim shite. It doesn't wash. You're not the victim, you're the jackbooted oppressors.

So what are Israel meant to do? Give back the entire area and all move to America? There will never be a solution to this as long as the intentions of Hamas are to wipe out Israel.

Are you aware that Israel keeps encroaching on Palestine, year by year, month by month, day by day? By force? By theft and murder? You speak as though there were two settled states, and one seeks the destruction of the other - but you seem to misunderstand which is effecting the destruction of the other.

I find it laughable that supporters of Israel fasten on to a couple of paras in a document to argue that Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel, when lived reality every day demonstrates that Israel is achieving the destruction of Palestine, and the genocide of the Palestinian people.

[peterms]

[Vive_La_Villa]

OK. You need to understand the reality in the Israeli cities and towns in the south, close to the Gaza strip...

In total, I guess that around 400,000 citizens (mind you the entire population of Israel is 8 Million) is under threat or rockets.

So - yes, no deaths, thanks to the Israelis who keep their heads down, but this is not a way to live a life.

It's you who needs to understand the reality.

You are the occupying army. You live on stolen land, denying basic human rights to the people whose land and property you have stolen, whose livelihoods you destroy, whose children you routinely murder.

Please don't come this victim shite. It doesn't wash. You're not the victim, you're the jackbooted oppressors.

So what are Israel meant to do? Give back the entire area and all move to America? There will never be a solution to this as long as the intentions of Hamas are to wipe out Israel.

Are you aware that Israel keeps encroaching on Palestine, year by year, month by month, day by day? By force? By theft and murder? You speak as though there were two settled states, and one seeks the destruction of the other - but you seem to misunderstand which is effecting the destruction of the other.

I find it laughable that supporters of Israel fasten on to a couple of paras in a document to argue that Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel, when lived reality every day demonstrates that Israel is achieving the destruction of Palestine, and the genocide of the Palestinian people.

I'm not a supporter of Israel. I can only go by what I see and read. You seem to know quite a lot. Have you lived in Israel or Palestine and experienced what is happening first hand?

What do you feel is the solution?

[Rugeley Villa]

i can understand why palenstine have got this hate and anger towards israel but even in a fantasy world if israel located outside the middle east they would still be targeted. same goes for america and britain, israel and the west will always be the enermy. its bred into the youth of that part of the world and i can only see the problem escalating.

[peterms]

Israeli women draw pictures and write messages on bombs, as they murder Palestinian children.

 

[peterms]

I'm not a supporter of Israel. I can only go by what I see and read. You seem to know quite a lot. Have you lived in Israel or Palestine and experienced what is happening first hand?

What do you feel is the solution?

No, never lived there, never will.

 

The solution lies in accommodating the the realistic needs of the other.  When people find they have no alternative but that, they do it, regardless of all the pledges they have made previously never to negotiate with the enemy (Northern Ireland, South Africa).  When they think they can avoid that by mass slaughter, they go for that (USA, Australia, Israel).

 

The role of the international community must be to dissuade Israel from thinking it can remove its problem by murdering the people whose land they are stealing.

[Risso]

You'd have more of a point if Hamas hadn't murdered their own people.