The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[omariqy]

 

Do you forget the part Israel have in the fact that the people of Gaza haven't enough food or shelter? 

 

This claim is unfair due to several reasons:

1. Access from Gaza to Israel was allowed as long as The Palestinian Authority was in control of Gaza. As soon as Hamas took over - Israel closed the border.

 

2. I wish to remind you that Hamas is an entity calling for the extinction of Israel. You don't really expect Israel to have an open border with a sheer enemy, right?

 

3. Gaza have a shared border with Egypt. Why would Israel allow the Gazans in, when they elect a Hamas for leadership, while Egypt keep their border closed? You should also remember that during this period of time, Egypt was controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood and not a secular regime such as Mubarak's or A Sisi. Still, during this time - the border remained closed. What prevented the Muslim Brotherhood to open the border and help their poor brothers from Gaza? It might have something to do with the refugees camp all around the middle east - they don't really want to solve the Palestinian problem. They want to use it as a tool against Israel.

 

4. Dozens of trucks enter Gaza strip each day with supplies, entering through Kerem Shalom passage in Israel. It might not be anything that the population want - but its more than any other country send them....

 

5. Within the tunnels, built to harm Israelis, sacks of Israeli manufactured cement were found. They used the supplies Israel sent to build tunnels for... hurting Israel.

 

6. A ship was apprehended some time back, carrying loads of long range missiles and ammunition sent from Iran to Hamas. I am sure some managed to sneak in without the Israeli navy noticing it. And it surprises you Israel does not want shipments to get to Gaza?

Some might think Israel is a demon which all its aim it too make life bad for the Palestinians. As if I get up in the morning and think of how to deprive children of their milk supplements just because they live in Rafah. This is preposterous!

You keep talking about the dire situation of the population of Gaza and you are 100% right, but instead of pointing the finger at Israel, point it to the Hamas. Just think - the economy of the Palestinians in the West Bank is dependent on the Israeli market. Still, workers are allowed to come to work in Israel and Israeli - Arabs can visit the West Bank quite freely, purchasing goods. How can you explain the difference between Gaza and the West Bank? Israel "hates" only the ones in Gaza?

 

 

 

1.  Why should Israel decide who is democratically elected in Palestine?

 

2.  They call for the extinction but Israel actually puts in to action eh.  Oh http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel

 

3.  And who created this refugee problem? Don't get me wrong the middle east countries should do more and I have critcised them plenty.

 

4.  Many countries would like to send them aid but it's pretty difficult to do when things like this happen http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10243813. This is just one example of many.  Again you forget to mention why people in Gaza need aid.  Lets not forget this http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

 

5. I don't get this.  Israel sent them supplies to build tunnels?  Also again why do they need building supplies?  Because you keep flattening them.

 

6.  If Israel controls the borders then surely it should be easier to screen what goes in?  I.e. what Israel already does?

 

No one is saying that you do.  But the Israeli government are very happy with their latest operation.  There is no sorrow or sadness for the lost innocent lives.  No remorse.  Just blame on Hamas.  Lets not forget problems existed before Hamas were around.

 

Why is there still occupation in West Bank?

Your arguments never focus on why the issues exist.  The root cause.  Why should there be so many refugees? 

[colhint]

I think that's a bit unfair on Glamorgan, I didn't read it as they should decide who should be elected in Gaza, more that they didn't trust Hammas and like Egypt they closed their borders. On point 2, have you read it? because it does say

 

Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist,

 

Are points 4 and 6 almost the same. Glarmorgan did say that loads of munitions were apprehended on a ship from Iran, and the bbc report does state that if the ship docks in Israel it will ship the aid to Gaza once it has been checked. 

[maqroll]

I think the UN has to go into Gaza to help rebuild and then stay on with an active armed presence. Gaza will not be bombed as long as there is a semi-permanent UN peacekeeping force installed in the area. 

[chrisp65]

for all the talk of it all being Hamas' fault and the fight is only with Hamas, not the people, let's not forget this didn't start in 2007

 

let's not be distracted by 'detail', it suits all sides that these people are treated worse than factory farmed animals

[blandy]

...it suits all sides that these people are treated worse than factory farmed animals

Except it actually doesn't, Chris. or at least perhaps in the very short term it might.

As you say it's been going on for ages - it doesn't suit good people like Garmorgan to live under threat of rockets, even ineffectual ones. It doesn't suit the west for people to be radicalised, it doesn't suit Israel, it doesn't suit the poor people being bombed and shelled. It's a weeping sore on the world, and the source of much of the problems we all have.

[chrisp65]

You're right of course, it doesn't suit the vast majority it suits those who value being in power over all else and it must suit some businesses and politicians.

 

But yes, for people of any background, wondering if you're kids will survive school and wondering if walking down the road will kill you today can't be the best way to live your life.

 

I wasn't meaning to refer to everyday people, I meant 'the man' in all his guises.

[OutByEaster?]

5. Despite the Israeli army efforts - there is still no solution to prevent the Hamas from digging tunnels.

 

Have you considered letting them out?

 

[OutByEaster?]

Like your extremely strong next door neighbor who has the strength and the knowledge not only to use them offensively, but defensively as well, to protect his house from your puny retaliation attempts.

 

Beside - according to your line of thought, you are playing God on daily basis by not killing everyone around you. 

 

Like your reasonably strong next door neighbour who knows the local hard man and one day decided to kick the back door in and move into your house, and who makes you sleep under the stairs and piss in a bucket?

[Glarmorgan]

Many of your claims for the origin of this conflict are inaccurate, at best.

 

First and foremost - at 1947, in the time of the UN partition plan - there was not Palestinian state. In a matter of fact - there never was a Palestinian state, throughout history. Never ever. Second - at that time, there was a founded Jewish settlement in this region. Actual numbers talk of 600,000 Jews here in 1948, with 1,200,000 Arabs to a total of, give or take 2 Million people in this relatively barren land. 

One must also think that the peaceful Arabs just had a problem with the local Jewish population. This, of course, is not true as the Arab leader (the "Mufti") was a close ally of one - Adolf Hitler, and explicitly asked him for some assistance to deal with that problem he was so good with. You know - exterminating Jews. Lucky for the ones here, Hitler was occupied elsewhere. You can look up the Arab uprising of 1929 to learn more of the peaceful Arabs and their treatment of their Jewish neighbors.

 

According to what the UN committee saw, a partition of the land was declared. Just as this conflict in Gaza - while the Jews accepted the partition plan, the Arabs refused to and waged war. These are facts. Not interpretations of a vague situation. The Arabs, lucky for us, lost, and Israel ceased more land. Now, I've read a lot of this issue - it was very common back days for the Arabs to flee their homes to the neighboring area in case of emergency, and this is exactly what many of them did. The difference was that on this occasion - Israel was declared and so - they had nowhere to return to and thus - remained at Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and so on. This created at least a part of the refugee problem, mainly because all these stated refused to give them citizenship, cementing their refugee status for all time.

 

Gaza, for a matter of fact, was not to be a part of the Jewish state in 1948. It was to be a part of the newly Arab state. in the 1948 Gaza was conquered by Egyptian forces who annexed it and so it became a part of Egypt till 1967, the 6 days war. Israel kicked no one out of Gaza as it was not under Israeli control. When Israel did conquer it, no deportations took place. Not from Gaza nor the West Bank. 

 

In general - please stop with "kicked their out of their homes" mantra. This is war. The war was not declared by Israel and, if you wish to look into it, there was a regional plan of both Jordan and Egypt to take control of the future "Arab country" (after all what prevented them from giving independence to Gaza and the West Bank? They could actually create the Palestinian state - but decided not to. Strange, isn't it?). All in all - if one declares war and loses - he cannot stand back and say - OK, stop everything - let's rewind as nothing has happened. And please remember that during that time (3 years after the end of WWII) - mass move of population was all too common. It was common in Europe and it was common in the middle east.

 

Also - it is very easy to talk about the Palestinian refugee situation from afar. Have you looked into the Jewish refugee problem? And I am not talking of the European Jews, but the Middle Eastern. Yep, it seems that the creation of Israel made some Arabs in Iraq, Syria and Egypt quite angry so they directed their anger at the local Jews - forcing them to flee their homes, leave all their assets behind. Were you aware of that? Probably not and even if you have - you don't hear of the "Jewish refugee problem", because the Jews, unlike the Palestinians, wanted to solve their situation thus settled elsewhere - Israel, US, Canada, etc. The Palestinian refugees, on the other hand, are not allowed to set fixed houses in the neighboring countries (mainly Syria) so they won't think of settling over there.

 

Eventually - please refer to Khartoum Resolution of 1967. This will help you understand the current state of affair in this region during that time. The most famous part of this resolution was "The Three No's: No to peace with Israel, No recognition of Israel, no negotiating with Israel" and this applied for the entire Arab league. This might help you realize why Israel had and has to hold a very strong army - this is not a peaceful neighborhood. Wasn't in 1967 and isn't in 2014..

 

And even if you do think Israel don't have the right to exist - it does and lucky for me and my family - we are strong enough not to let anyone change this status. So the Palestinians have to come to a decision - do they continue fighting the 1948 war or do they think of the present? Hamas is fighting the 1948 war - they wish to exterminate Israel, refuse recognizing it. Abu Mazen made some important steps towards Israel. I have to give him that, but at the time being, it does not seem that either him or Netanyahu are capable of making and passing the big decisions. Netanyahu will find it practically impossible to secede parts of the West Bank, while Abu Mazen will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state and will not forfeit the right of return - which practically means the end of the Jewish state. 

[Glarmorgan]

for all the talk of it all being Hamas' fault and the fight is only with Hamas, not the people, let's not forget this didn't start in 2007

 

let's not be distracted by 'detail', it suits all sides that these people are treated worse than factory farmed animals

 

I disagree - Israel has no interest for the Gazans to live as they do. As most of us see here - a person who holds a solid job, lives in a nice place and enjoying life - will most probably do what he can to keep it and not letting Hamas to fire rockets from his back yard or rooftop.

 

Gaza is under Hamas control - nothing prevents Hamas from investing funds into its development.

[chrisp65]

both sides are still obsessed with who started it

 

with getting in the revenge for the revenge

 

taking a thousand eyes for the eye that's been taken

 

eventually

 

eventually

 

both have to work out what to actually do about it

[chrisp65]

 

for all the talk of it all being Hamas' fault and the fight is only with Hamas, not the people, let's not forget this didn't start in 2007

 

let's not be distracted by 'detail', it suits all sides that these people are treated worse than factory farmed animals

 

I disagree - Israel has no interest for the Gazans to live as they do. As most of us see here - a person who holds a solid job, lives in a nice place and enjoying life - will most probably do what he can to keep it and not letting Hamas to fire rockets from his back yard or rooftop.

 

Gaza is under Hamas control - nothing prevents Hamas from investing funds into its development.

 

 

Unfortunately, rightly or wrongly, there is a new problem now that is just the same as the previous problem.

 

The IDF have just created another 1,000 martyrs to an obscene cause, they've just given another 10,000 families cause to want Israel destroyed.

 

Our tv news tonight has shown a woman offering her son aged under 10 to be another martyr to the cause, hoping he dies freeing the Palestinians - I can't imagine the mental state of a mother offering to sacrifice her son, in front of her son. That mini little cameo alone would be front page news if it was over here.

 

It's an impossible position, desperate for both sides.

 

I don't pretend to have the solution, I just know what won't fix it. Bombing families that already felt badly treated with shitty life prospects.

[OutByEaster?]

A peaceful country right here with millions of people living in it in tolerance, is more important than whether it's called Israel, it's more important than Judaism existing, it's more important than there being a Palestinian state or a muslim state. I don't believe that Israel has a right to exist, any more than I believe any country has a right to exist, a rich bloke drew lines on a map so that he could be richer and gave it a name. I don't care about being British, because in reality it doesn't mean anything. The sooner we realise that the problems here are at their heart silly, about what some dirt is called, about whether the big man in the sky likes this or that or the other, the sooner we'll get a solution. 

 

I'm not holding my breath on that utopia, but I firmly believe that it's true; if people weren't so obsessed with being in a gang, they might just get along better.

 

Instead, eventually Israel will eliminate Gaza - it will cease to exist and lots of people will die so that some dirt can be blue and white - that's the long and the short of it and it's a crying shame.

[PompeyVillan]

I wonder what would happen if Israel were to show incredible kindness to Palestine for a number of years whether Hamas would have any leverage or popular support.

Send aid, build schools and hospitals. Improve infrastructure and stimulate economy. I know it would never happen for myriad reasons now, the sides are too entrenched.

To me the only way to destroy radicalism is to give the people a better alternative. That seems impossible in this conflict because neither side would be willing to compromise on the fundamental issue of the borders.

[omariqy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZZ74PW8Xw

[Glarmorgan]

I'll get to my long reply in a couple of hours. Just wanted to inform you that at the moment the 72 hours ceasefire ended, Hamas launched rockets to Israel.

So... Now what? Do you think that restarting this thing is for the best in term of the common folk in Gaza? And what should Israel do? Sit in its hand?

As I told you - you seek western world logic when none exists. We did the same some years back, thinking we understand the way some of our neighbors think. Well, we found out that we don't. Hamas knows his claim will be better heard when the casualty rate is on the rise. So that's where they're heading to.

[donnie]

If there ever was a time for the west to get involved in the middle east then that time is now.

What ISIS are doing is truly disgusting. If they manage to take control of the country and its resources then the world will have a big problem.

Its truly shocking that thousands of yazadi are stuck on the mountains whilst a terroist organisation are sitting below awaiting to kill them and in the mean time thousands of Christians are fleeing in terror of the prospect of being murdered.

[Ads]

Good to see that Barry has finally pulled his finger out and has decided to help the Yezidi. I expect mission creep to take place and for the USAF to start to provide CAS to the Peshmerga they can rely upon.

 

It seems to me that the help the Peshmerga have got off the IA and IRIAF may be a case of interests overlapping for the time being, as neither have any love for the Kurds.

[tonyh29]

America is coming to help

 

 

... what could possibly go wrong

[snowychap]

One of the most worrying developments in all this is the number of acronyms in use and that they seem to change almost daily (when did ISIS decide to drop the second IS and who did their rebranding?).