StefanAVFC Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 "Procedure" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 2 hours ago, limpid said: In the legislatures of the UK, your contract is with the legal person with whom you have a contract. I'd never expect anyone to contact a manufacturer except as a last resort. Modern devices are all encrypted (or capable of being encrypted). Without the key the data is secure. I can reset any of my devices without needing to involve a manufacturer. Stefan should be able to do this with the handset he owns without involving the manufacturer and Apple's obstructive and unnecessary behaviour is stopping him. It is, yes. I doubt whether anyone with a Samsung/Android of any type/applephone/windowphone would get much joy out of any network operator - videophone/EE/O2 etc if they get their phone account with Android or Windowsoft or Google or iCloud all confusulated and comboblified. They don't have control of those things. The closest fits are for pixel and iPhone where the hardware maker is also the cloud service provider. When you get into the world of data storage rather than just telephone network provision it gets more complicated than the law really accounts for. The likes of Googlecloud and iCloud and so on are "free" services, so that adds a further complication. I suspect that someone with a similarly bricked Windows or Android phone would have more trouble getting it sorted than with an iPhone where at least the phone manufacturer has stores that you can physically go to where they do sort stuff out. Maybe Samsung have shops too? If you buy a chinese phone or whatever, you're goosed if it gets locked up in error. Quote Isn't this conversation about Apple needing ridiculous levels of ID and proof of ownership No, though that seems to be your assertion. They (as far as I can tell) asked Stefan to prove the phone was his [implicitly show us you've not just nicked or found it] by showing them a receipt for buying it. That seems like common sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: "Procedure" Sorry to go off topic, but I had an issue recently which was **** 'procedure'. Had a parcel which ended up being missed, they said it can be picked up from Sainsburys. I get there and they ask for the email (I don't have an email), but I have texts with the parcel number, my drivers license, a copy of the order with the same number on the box they have, as well as the card they gave me when they missed my delivery. But they wouldn't give me the parcel as I might not be me. Even though my name is on the box, which is on my license, which has the address for the box, which has a reference number which is on the texts... So yeah, **** procedure. I feel for you! Edited December 21, 2016 by DK82 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 2 hours ago, limpid said: I can reset any of my devices without needing to involve a manufacturer I'm curious. Suppose you lose your phone. If I "found" it could I reset it, then and start using it as my own? If not, then you'd presumably be able to invoke some kind of remote lock type thing? to prevent me setting it back to factory settings and then setting it up as mine, or from me stealing all your Limpidy data. So suppose you lose your phone, remotely "lock it", but then I find it and think "this is Limpid's phone, I'll give it back to him". Suppose now for some glitch reason you can't get the lock you put on it to unlock and be useable again - How do you get it working again? Complain to E bay or wherever you got it from? Complain to Google 'cuts android has glitched, complain to Google because your Google account has got befuddled? Because that's effectively similar to the situation Stefan's in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, blandy said: I'm curious. Suppose you lose your phone. If I "found" it could I reset it, then and start using it as my own? If not, then you'd presumably be able to invoke some kind of remote lock type thing? to prevent me setting it back to factory settings and then setting it up as mine, or from me stealing all your Limpidy data. So suppose you lose your phone, remotely "lock it", but then I find it and think "this is Limpid's phone, I'll give it back to him". Suppose now for some glitch reason you can't get the lock you put on it to unlock and be useable again - How do you get it working again? Complain to E bay or wherever you got it from? Complain to Google 'cuts android has glitched, complain to Google because your Google account has got befuddled? Because that's effectively similar to the situation Stefan's in. Android is super simple, flash it, and cyanogen mod of some form. Online data should be fine but who knows about anything stored onboard. Apple... stupid apple and their little walled garden. I expect something along these lines is still possible though a deeper dive of the shadowy parts of the net may be required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, blandy said: I'm curious. Suppose you lose your phone. If I "found" it could I reset it, then and start using it as my own? If not, then you'd presumably be able to invoke some kind of remote lock type thing? to prevent me setting it back to factory settings and then setting it up as mine, or from me stealing all your Limpidy data. All my devices are encrypted. You can't get into them without the key. I can remote lock or remote wipe. You can factory reset it and use it as your own, except that me and my insurance will have registered the IMEI with the network blacklists. Having my device does not in anyway allow you to access the data as linking a device to an account would be insane. 13 minutes ago, blandy said: So suppose you lose your phone, remotely "lock it", but then I find it and think "this is Limpid's phone, I'll give it back to him". I'd move to a backup device and order new SIM cards. If I get the old phone back then I'm still the only one with the key. If I've wiped it and get it back then when I reconnect to my Google account then all my data and apps appear magically. 16 minutes ago, blandy said: Suppose now for some glitch reason you can't get the lock you put on it to unlock and be useable again - How do you get it working again? Complain to E bay or wherever you got it from? Complain to Google 'cuts android has glitched, complain to Google because your Google account has got befuddled? I do a factory reset and then reconnect to my Google account. None of this involves being forced to travel to anyone's shop, nor does it involve explaining to anyone else what I am doing nor why. It's none of their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, limpid said: All my devices are encrypted. You can't get into them without the key. I can remote lock or remote wipe. You can factory reset it and use it as your own, except that me and my insurance will have registered the IMEI with the network blacklists. Having my device does not in anyway allow you to access the data as linking a device to an account would be insane. I'd move to a backup device and order new SIM cards. If I get the old phone back then I'm still the only one with the key. If I've wiped it and get it back then when I reconnect to my Google account then all my data and apps appear magically. I do a factory reset and then reconnect to my Google account. None of this involves being forced to travel to anyone's shop, nor does it involve explaining to anyone else what I am doing nor why. It's none of their business. Thanks. So the level of data protection is the same, but the level of usability of a staple or found Android is greater. Stefan's phone is completely unusable, no phone calls, not nothing, whereas I could in theory use your phone to call whoever on the other side of the world and ring up costs to the account holder, at least until the network blocks the number. The back up is the same as with Apple products, which can be backed up to the cloud and / or a computer. Stefan's problem is that he can't effectively re-connect the phone to the "Google" (Apple) account, and I guess if you had the same problem, you'd be stuffed, too, but you couldn't take it to a shop to sort that out. Swings and roundabouts, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, blandy said: I could in theory use your phone to call whoever on the other side of the world and ring up costs to the account holder, at least until the network blocks the number. Yes but limited to GSM access only i.e. no charges related to any accounts as the data is protected. Therefore the costs before the network blocks the SIM couldn't be too big. 13 minutes ago, blandy said: Stefan's problem is that he can't effectively re-connect the phone to the "Google" (Apple) account, and I guess if you had the same problem, you'd be stuffed, too, but you couldn't take it to a shop to sort that out. Swings and roundabouts, I guess. Don't think it's the same. Simon would just do a data reset and then start the phone back from factory settings. After signing back in with the password for his accounts only known to him, most of everything would be synced back in and I'd assume he'd have a backup for anything else really important that can't be cloud-synced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 1 minute ago, darrenm said: Yes but limited to GSM access only i.e. no charges related to any accounts as the data is protected. Therefore the costs before the network blocks the SIM couldn't be too big. Don't think it's the same. Simon would just do a data reset and then start the phone back from factory settings. After signing back in with the password for his accounts only known to him, most of everything would be synced back in and I'd assume he'd have a backup for anything else really important that can't be cloud-synced. Ta. You could rack up a fair bill just on GSM calling Australia, Pakistan, China or wherever at 50p a minute mind. If you can't somehow log in to Google on the phone or computer to access your account who do you complain to? You're kind of stuck, aren't you, to online "help" Quote I can't login to my google account from my android phone. I have spent hours poring through all the google help, troubleshooting, etc... But the error message keeps saying, user name incorrect. I tried retrieving it by putting in password, but it doesnt recognize. I tried every suggestion from those "help" and "troublshooting" pages. I can signin fine to my first account, but from my second one, which I can signin just fine from my Windows XP, using Firefox, I can't signin from my gmail app on my Android. How can I fix this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Still not the same The iPhone is completely unusable. The other phone is perfectly usable, you just can't sign into Google to get your contacts, photos, emails etc. You'd just need to do an online password reset to get into your account. Google help is available on the phone too. I've personally found them excellent but the contact details are a bit difficult to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 16 minutes ago, darrenm said: Still not the same I accept it's different in that regard. The question was relating to Simon's comment that you shouldn't have to go to a shop (if you can't sort it online). With Google (or presumably Windows etc.) if you get a situation where you can't access your account or log in, there's nowhere else to go. With apple you can go to a physical human helper in a shop. The apple phone is rendered unusable by anyone, the Android remains useable by anyone including thieves (for a period). They are two different approaches each with pros and cons. Doesn't help Stefan much, mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, blandy said: Ta. You could rack up a fair bill just on GSM calling Australia, Pakistan, China or wherever at 50p a minute mind. If I give you my phone now, you'd have to defeat smart lock to get in and make a call. If you put either SIM in another phone, you'll need the correct SIM PIN. 9 minutes ago, blandy said: If you can't somehow log in to Google on the phone or computer to access your account who do you complain to? You're kind of stuck, aren't you, to online "help" I'm the admin for my own Google domain (which I pay for). Even if I wasn't, if I can't make my 2FA work for the new connection, I have alternate email addresses and several phone numbers registered. I have a printed out OTP in a safe place as a last resort. Google prompt you to set these up (except the last) and regularly ask you to review them. There is no meaningful way that I can't re-connect to my Google account, even if I might need to travel home to do it. I reset one of my devices at least once a month because I use so many devices (and lend them to people). It's just not an issue. Even if it was, I could just start a new account and not be deprived of the use of MY device. You've stated previously that you don't like Google, but they get this all correct. The data is yours and all the tools to use and re-connect to it are in your control as the owner of the data. The device is nothing to do with Google. Apple own the whole silo and dictate what you can do with your devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: The apple phone is rendered unusable by anyone, the Android remains useable by anyone including thieves (for a period). They are two different approaches each with pros and cons. If my phone is more than 10m away from me it's unusable unless someone does a factory reset. If they do I have still lost nothing other than the physical device. They can't make calls, they can't access my data. Do you think Android devices don't lock or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 The big issue here is that I have A ID that was used on the device before it was wiper. That should be enough for them to take the lock off. For all their technology they cant see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, limpid said: If my phone is more than 10m away from me it's unusable unless someone does a factory reset. If they do I have still lost nothing other than the physical device. They can't make calls, they can't access my data. Do you think Android devices don't lock or something? I was going on Darren's info - people, (he said), can call from a nicked or found Android phone by setting to back to factory settings and setting it up as "new" If you're saying it's impossible to be unable to access or log in to Google, if it's impossible to have any account access problems, I'm impressed. Other people less so - Quote I changed my phone number and can't access my Google accounts! I literally have been trying to access my main Google+ -Gmail account for months. It is very simple. I have changed my phone number since I opened my account and cant go thru the reset option where they text you the pin code. This is crazy! SOMEONE PLEASE HELP! I had to create this account (linked to a yahoo mail) just to post this! HELP! ---------- I'm sorry that you are having a problem and I hope that I can guide you to a solution. ...cant go thru the reset option... If you can not regain access to an account by using recovery options (through phone or email), then my best advice for you is read this [1] BLOG to learn how to recover an account. In short, you will go to the [2] Account Recovery Form to verify your identity (by answering questions). Also… Google will not help you with this. Google does not make it easy. There are not any other alternate ways. If you fail (and many have), then your only option is to try again (using slightly different answers) or to abandon the account.... Basically it seems to me that people with tech will occasionally have problems, whether it's someone trying to reset their brother's phone, or someone who changed their sim card or any of the multitude of other issues that a quick, er, Bing search brings up. When these things happen, they hack people off. Personally, my preference is for the problems not to happen, but if they do being able to go to a human to get it sorted is helpful when the interwebs doesn't resolve it. I'll accept the "walled garden" for the reduced risk of nastiness, others may have a different choice, that's fine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 @blandy because some people ignore all the warnings and reminders does not mean it applies to everyone. Google regularly ask you to set up and check recovery phone numbers and email addresses (and two factor). SIM PINs have been a thing since SIMs were credit card sized. If you don't have one, I can pop the SIM out of your iphone and make calls with it. This is a SIM problem, not a handset manufacturer problem. I prefer to stay outside of the walled garden with all my freedom where there is no nastiness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, limpid said: @blandy because some people ignore all the warnings and reminders does not mean it applies to everyone. Google regularly ask you to set up and check recovery phone numbers and email addresses (and two factor). SIM PINs have been a thing since SIMs were credit card sized. If you don't have one, I can pop the SIM out of your iphone and make calls with it. This is a SIM problem, not a handset manufacturer problem. I prefer to stay outside of the walled garden with all my freedom where there is no nastiness. Each to their own Plenty of people have trouble for whatever reason with "google couldn't verify it's you, so you can't sign in to this account right now" messages. maybe their own doing, maybe glitches. Who knows. No system is perfect. People can get locked out of phones and accounts whatever make or OS. It's an utter pain, I can only imagine. I don't think any system has "no nastiness" and things like the Play store are certainly not immune. As you often advise, users need to be careful whatever they use. No system is immune from problems and nasties. Anyway, hopefully Stefan's iPhone is sorted soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 59 minutes ago, blandy said: Anyway, hopefully Stefan's iPhone is sorted soon. How do you know it's Stefan's? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I have the receipt/PoP with IMEI number on it. That should be enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 21, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted December 21, 2016 Could have stolen the receipt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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