StefanAVFC Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Been on the phone as me. Been on the phone as my brother. Been on the webchat. Been to the Apple store. Nobody can give me a straight answer. "Which Apple ID was used to set up this phone?" Proof of purchase being obtained from EE shop, will take up to 2 weeks to remove the lock. So the christmas present will be a 'here it is, but you can't have it' I get the need for security but FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 20, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: I get the need for security but FFS. I don't. You've been treated appallingly. It's your phone and Apple are holding it ransom without good reason. They or the network can always kill it later if the police request it. It's none of Apple's business. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V01 Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 My friend had his Iphone stolen a few years ago, reported to the police, blocked it then did the find my phone thing. It was at an Apple store having been swapped because it "didn't work". He received an email confirming his replacement being issued, He went to the store with ID, the email and a copy of the police report with the IMEI and serial number noted and they still refused to return it. He still has an Iphone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Well they've told me multiple times that with proof of purchase, they will erase it and I'll be able to use it. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 10 hours ago, limpid said: I don't. You've been treated appallingly. It's your phone and Apple are holding it ransom without good reason. They or the network can always kill it later if the police request it. It's none of Apple's business. The flip side of that is that someone has contacted apple, said "I've got this phone that's locked and I can't get it to unlock". The person has not provided any proof of ownership for the phone, but has shown they have access to a different person's iCloud account. My sympathy is with Stefan, as we've heard his story, but I can also see the case that apple have not acted appallingly at all, they seem to be following logical process to deal with the issue. The issue of why the phone having been activation locked won't unlock is the core problem, surely? In order for apple to resolve that problem they are right to need to verify the individual has legal ownership, otherwise it could be easy for anyone to steal an iPhone and take it to a store to get "their" phone clean-slated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 14 minutes ago, blandy said: The flip side of that is that someone has contacted apple, said "I've got this phone that's locked and I can't get it to unlock". The person has not provided any proof of ownership for the phone, but has shown they have access to a different person's iCloud account. My sympathy is with Stefan, as we've heard his story, but I can also see the case that apple have not acted appallingly at all, they seem to be following logical process to deal with the issue. The issue of why the phone having been activation locked won't unlock is the core problem, surely? In order for apple to resolve that problem they are right to need to verify the individual has legal ownership, otherwise it could be easy for anyone to steal an iPhone and take it to a store to get "their" phone clean-slated. Apple don't have to respond to such calls. They have no contractual relationship with the caller. They've chosen to implement this ridiculous "security" mechanism precisely so that they can extend their silo. Stefan's legal rights are via the contract of sale, not some weird software tricks implemented by the manufacturer. Who do Apple think they are to be able to identify "legal ownership"? Which act gives them licence to act as a legal authority in any way? That's the job of the courts, not Apple. This is just an excuse to force someone to attend their premises for a sales pitch. By the time you've jumped through all these hoops most people will take whatever deal they offer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, limpid said: Apple don't have to respond to such calls. They have no contractual relationship with the caller. They've chosen to implement this ridiculous "security" mechanism precisely so that they can extend their silo. Stefan's legal rights are via the contract of sale, not some weird software tricks implemented by the manufacturer. Who do Apple think they are to be able to identify "legal ownership"? Which act gives them licence to act as a legal authority in any way? That's the job of the courts, not Apple. This is just an excuse to force someone to attend their premises for a sales pitch. By the time you've jumped through all these hoops most people will take whatever deal they offer. I'm not so sure, each time I have had an issue (not anything like Stefan is having), they have looked at the problems and replaced the phone - without any sales pitch. Those problems were 4s overheating and 6s shutting down under 20% battery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 It's interesting that no-one else but Apple implements these measures. An an Android based phone (for example) your data is protected but the device ownership is left to standard procedures of law. In this circumstance with e.g. an S7, you would hold vol up + home + power on and then wipe all data from the menu and the phone is factory reset. In this instance it's stopped someone from using their legally owned device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 Just now, DK82 said: I'm not so sure, each time I have had an issue (not anything like Stefan is having), they have looked at the problems and replaced the phone - without any sales pitch. Those problems were 4s overheating and 6s shutting down under 20% battery. So they can get this right. It's a pity they aren't consistent. Although I'm curious what your vendor said that made you go to the manufacturer. When you've got a hole in your xmas jumper you take it back to the shop. You don't try to contact the sweat shop that made it nor the middlemen who financed and imported it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 41 minutes ago, limpid said: Apple don't have to respond to such calls. They have no contractual relationship with the caller. They've chosen to implement this ridiculous "security" mechanism precisely so that they can extend their silo. Stefan's legal rights are via the contract of sale, not some weird software tricks implemented by the manufacturer. Who do Apple think they are to be able to identify "legal ownership"? Which act gives them licence to act as a legal authority in any way? That's the job of the courts, not Apple. This is just an excuse to force someone to attend their premises for a sales pitch. By the time you've jumped through all these hoops most people will take whatever deal they offer. I think you're completely wrong in your interpretation, Simon. I also think you massively contradict yourself. You wrote that you think Stefan's been treated appallingly, then say apple don't have to respond to such calls. He's called them, they've said they'll sort it out so long as he shows its not a stolen or found phone, that he has legitimate reason to unlock it. That's exactly what I'd hope any manufacturer would do. It's reassuring that if my phone is lost or stolen, apple wouldn't simply unlock it for the thief. the contract of sale was between EE and stefans brother. Are you seriously suggesting that google/apple/android/Microsoft and all the other tech providers shouldn't verify legitimacy of a user wanting to unlock someone's data? I find that bizarre. The criticism should be at the tech that's somehow resulted in a bricked phone. That's what's poor, not the process which protects data by verifying validity of ownership of the phone and data. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, blandy said: I think you're completely wrong in your interpretation, Simon. I also think you massively contradict yourself. You wrote that you think Stefan's been treated appallingly, then say apple don't have to respond to such calls. He's called them, they've said they'll sort it out so long as he shows its not a stolen or found phone, that he has legitimate reason to unlock it. That's exactly what I'd hope any manufacturer would do. It's reassuring that if my phone is lost or stolen, apple wouldn't simply unlock it for the thief. They say they'll sort it out if he jumps through ridiculous hoops. Not everyone lives near an Apple shop. Not everyone wants to bypass their legal rights by approaching the manufacturer. As @V01 said above, Apple DO accept blocked, stolen phones for repair and also deny access to people who can legal prove they own the device. 5 minutes ago, blandy said: the contract of sale was between EE and stefans brother. Are you seriously suggesting that google/apple/android/Microsoft and all the other tech providers shouldn't verify legitimacy of a user wanting to unlock someone's data? I find that bizarre. I think they should allow the owner of a phone to do what they like with their property, regardless of whether there is data on it or not. Nothing else is any of their business. Their business is to sell devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, limpid said: They say they'll sort it out if he jumps through ridiculous hoops. Not everyone lives near an Apple shop. Not everyone wants to bypass their legal rights by approaching the manufacturer. As @V01 said above, Apple DO accept blocked, stolen phones for repair and also deny access to people who can legal prove they own the device. I think they should allow the owner of a phone to do what they like with their property, regardless of whether there is data on it or not. Nothing else is any of their business. Their business is to sell devices. @V01 's examples are where apple should be criticised. That's flaws in their process, or people not following it properly. I don't get your point "Not everyone wants to bypass their legal rights by approaching the manufacturer." Are you saying Stefan shouldn't have gone to apple, but should have gone to EE, as that's who the phone was bought from? your last sentence is curiously at odds with views you've previously expressed. Data protection, I'd thought was something you were keen on. Stefan has not been established as the owner of the phone and once he is apple say they'll sort it out. That's as it should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) I have the receipt of purchase. If Apple accept that, no worries. A bit of a delay but fine. They said they require an invoice from the shop which seems a bit OTT. If they don't accept it then we're heading down a slippery slope. Edited December 21, 2016 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 1 hour ago, limpid said: So they can get this right. It's a pity they aren't consistent. Although I'm curious what your vendor said that made you go to the manufacturer. When you've got a hole in your xmas jumper you take it back to the shop. You don't try to contact the sweat shop that made it nor the middlemen who financed and imported it. I was close to an Apple store so popped in. O2 (4s) wanted to send it off and leave me with a crappy Nokia, but Apple replaced on the day, was easier. Second time I had to go t'mainland and so used that as a chance to pop in and get my phone exchanged (as some 6s phones were having issues, mine was one). We don't have a Three store on the Island. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 21, 2016 Moderator Share Posted December 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I have the receipt of purchase. If Apple accept that, no worries. A bit of a delay but fine. I hope and imagine they will do. That ought to be all the extra evidence they need. Good luck. Every time I've ever had cause to use their customer service it's been excellent. Be nice to the "genius" and I'm sure you'll be pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 49 minutes ago, blandy said: I don't get your point "Not everyone wants to bypass their legal rights by approaching the manufacturer." Are you saying Stefan shouldn't have gone to apple, but should have gone to EE, as that's who the phone was bought from? In the legislatures of the UK, your contract is with the legal person with whom you have a contract. I'd never expect anyone to contact a manufacturer except as a last resort. 2 hours ago, blandy said: your last sentence is curiously at odds with views you've previously expressed. Data protection, I'd thought was something you were keen on. Stefan has not been established as the owner of the phone and once he is apple say they'll sort it out. That's as it should be. Modern devices are all encrypted (or capable of being encrypted). Without the key the data is secure. I can reset any of my devices without needing to involve a manufacturer. Stefan should be able to do this with the handset he owns without involving the manufacturer and Apple's obstructive and unnecessary behaviour is stopping him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 1 hour ago, DK82 said: I was close to an Apple store so popped in. O2 (4s) wanted to send it off and leave me with a crappy Nokia, but Apple replaced on the day, was easier. Second time I had to go t'mainland and so used that as a chance to pop in and get my phone exchanged (as some 6s phones were having issues, mine was one). We don't have a Three store on the Island. If this worked out for you then great. What ID / proof of purchase did you have on you when you "popped in"? O2 / Three offering poor service doesn't really change anything though. My opinion on buying phones tied to contracts is well known Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 59 minutes ago, limpid said: If this worked out for you then great. What ID / proof of purchase did you have on you when you "popped in"? O2 / Three offering poor service doesn't really change anything though. My opinion on buying phones tied to contracts is well known I had zero ID, just unlocked my phone. I don't think it is poor service from them (and I hate o2). If I can get my phone changed in 10 minutes instead of having it sent away, I think that is a good thing (and great I had that choice). When my Samsung *spit* went wrong I was without it for 2 weeks because they don't have backup phones in store at the shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted December 21, 2016 Administrator Share Posted December 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, DK82 said: I had zero ID, just unlocked my phone. I don't think it is poor service from them (and I hate o2). If I can get my phone changed in 10 minutes instead of having it sent away, I think that is a good thing (and great I had that choice). When my Samsung *spit* went wrong I was without it for 2 weeks because they don't have backup phones in store at the shops. Isn't this conversation about Apple needing ridiculous levels of ID and proof of ownership so that they can "protect" people's data? And yet you just rocked up, no ID and they swapped your "broken" phone for another? @V01 tells us it was the same when someone else took his friend's stolen handset into an Apple store. I bet when Stefan gets to the store they barely check his ID - almost certainly they won't verify any of it with the issuer. It's like the policies are just to get people into their shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Well that's the thing, I have no idea why they are being such turds over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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