The Dark Knight Rises - Spoilers marked please!

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Well the real world thing is what made me basically write off Bane as a potential character for Nolan to do - his character is basically defined by his being pretty 'unreal' - the Venom stuff, the prison child back story, etc etc. He's never been my favourite character but I guess I'll let Nolan convince me. Rah's al Ghul was always a stupid villain and he pulled that off.

I just can't get over the mask - its a bit shit. I couldn't make my mind up if it's better or worse than the luchador look.

News on the film has gone a little dark at the mo, which is odd as the previous film had a great (and long winded) hype campaign that was in gear well before the film came out, and also because it's comic rivals this year have both whacked out big new trailers and kicked their campaigns into gear in the last week or so.

I think he looks **** bad ass and if there's one thing Hardy absolutely excels at it's bad-assery. I mean, just look at him, the way he moves.

I'm sure you will have seen Bronson. You'll get over the mask mate.

[kurtsimonw]

Couldn't sleep so watched Begins and Dark Knight, which is now making me look forward to this very much.

I'm assuming you've read the books, Chindie, anything you recommend if you have? Batman Year One is something I hear a lot about, but not much else past that.

[Chindie]

I've read a few.

Year One is a decent read but very, very short. You could read it in an hour if you wanted to. It's also derogatorily sometimes referred to as 'Jim Gordon: Year One' as it focuses rather a lot on his character after he arrives in a new job in Gotham. It's an interesting take on the Batman Origin though and follows in Millers trademark footsteps with Batman - That he's a very, very messed up human being. Year One influenced Begins a fair amount.

Others worth a look are The Dark Knight Returns, which is often held as the best Batman graphic novel and also often considered the work that kickstarted the idea of 'a graphic novel'. It's a great read but feels a little old now and it's story is just... well, if you like Nolan's take on Batman, you'll feel a little unsure with how TDKR is. It tells the story of a Gotham City that Batman has retired from, and subsequently has descended into widespread crime and gang dominance, the main offenders being an odd 'futurist' gang calling themselves the Mutants. An older, bulkier Bruce Wayne is haunted by his allowing this to happen, and chooses to bring back the Bat, but with a new wrath.

The Long Halloween is probably worth a look too, its allegedly one of the inspirations for Nolan with The Dark Knight. It deals with a mysterious murderer who kills on the dates of major holidays, and only 1 man seems to know who it is, the Calendar Man, but he isn't about to tell Batman who it is. Along the way, pretty much every member of Batman's rogue gallery turns up. It's one of the most popular stories in the Batman back catalogue, and serves as a sort of semi sequel to Year One.

And the Killing Joke is definitely a good read. Written by Alan Moore (he of Watchmen, V for Vendetta fame, as well as making Constantine and Swamp Thing into decent creations), it's effectively an origin story for the Joker crossed with a story of one of the Jokers most despicable plots. It deals with how the Joker came to be, how Batman was involved, and in an idea that Nolan would borrow for TDK, how the Joker sets out to prove any good man can be broken by one bad moment.

If you wanted to get some grounding for the inspiration for the new film, the Knightfall arc is probably worth investigating, its the origin of Bane and seems to have, if little hints in what we've seen of the new film are correct, had big plot lines lifted from it. Knightfall basically sums up Bane's character, they're inextricably linked and always will be, so if you want to have some background on him for the film's interpretation, worth a look.

Hush is a good modern arc to look into too. Nothing to do with the films, introduces a new enemy for Batman that you've probably not heard of, has appearances by all the characters you know and love (and in the case of Nightwing, probably don't love, since nobody likes emo Batman), it's main failing is that it's becomes a bit convoluted as it goes on. Still a decent read though.

The thing to remember with the graphic novels and 'one shots' and comic arcs is that they're different beasts to the films. Nolan, smartly really, chopped loads of chaff from the stories he chose as inspiration. If you take something like The Dark Knight, Nolan has looked at things like the Long Halloween, and the Killing Joke, and taken 1 idea from them and dumped the rest. Long Halloween gave TDK the Two-Face origin, but the comic is a huge sprawling mystery story with appearances from pretty much every character ever to appear in a Batman comic, for example.

Only Year One has much of a resemblance to the films themselves, Begins in particular, largely because it is an intensely simple story - theres not a villain, even. All you get is Bruce Wayne returning to Gotham and taking up the costume to clear up the city. Which he does, though not without fault. It's a good read but the combination of it's short length, and the plot feeling a little slight, means you can read it and think 'is that it?'. But equally the other big hitters in the Batman catalogue go other way and can feel a little silly. The Dark Knight Returns, as good as it is (mainly because it portrays Batman as a vicious, brutal, obsessed with justice verging on mental badass), is silly as ****.

[Demitri_C]

cannot wiat for this. is there a release date yet?

i think this will be better than avengers personally

[Chindie]

July 20th. I'm considering going to an IMAX for it.

I'm not sure between this and the Avengers. Both have question marks for me. Looking forward immensely to both though.

[kurtsimonw]

Thanks for that reply Chindie.

Bought a copy of Batman Year One off eBay yesterday so should hopefully be here this week. Then got Killing Joke off my brothers mate for a few quid and can definitely see the idea for TDK in there, enjoyable book.

As a bit of a collector when it comes to graphic novels, I like to get as much as I can in hardcover, problem is Dark Knight Returns and Long Halloween are a bit costly like that! Looked into both of them a bit more though and they seem to get very high reviews for the most part, so I'll be keeping an eye on eBay to see if I can get them a little cheaper. Will add Knightfall and Hush to my list and have a look at getting them at some point too.

As for Batman and Avengers, I think Batman will definitely be the more successful and even as a Marvel fanboy I think it'll be the better film. Avengers is going to struggle to have much of a story to it and give the characters enough screen time unless it's 3+ hours long.

[jon_c]

Thing is I truly believe comic books.and subsquently the films live and die by their bad guys.

Dark knight and batman's jokers, X-men's Magneto, Spiderman 2's Doc Ock.

My favourite comic, Preacher, has two of the best bad guys ever (imo).

The Avengers still hasn't released who the bad guys are going to be, so it's difficult to judge.

[kidlewis]

spoilers(ish)

I cannot imagine this film will end with Batman (Wayne) in the same way Bane deals with wayne in the comics. I cannot see them managing to develop the plot line where Wayne hands the Dark Knight role over to Azrael.

I think we will see Bane cause the havok he does in the comics and batman tire heavily trying to sort it all out. Bane will brutally beat his ass down then after a bit of soul searching with Alfred and unlikely sources, Wayne will realise his errors and turn it into some epic ass kicking and deal with the lot.

[Chindie]

Possibly spoiler-y talk, musings on exactly what might be coming

I think they'll pick elements up from Knightfall. There are hints in the trailers thus far that Bane **** Batman up at some point, to the point that a lot of the marketing is focusing on Batman getting battered (so theres a nod to 'breaking the Bat'), including a suggestion he needs a walking stick at some point in the story.

I think the idea that they'll take the idea of Bane wearing Batman down and then destroying him (cutting a lot of the other crap from Knightfall) is probably on the money. They've spoken about Bane being a brutal character, focusing on them portraying him as just... **** people up seems to be the suggestion, so it looks like it'll all tie in. I'm actually excited by what they've said about Bane's presence in the film, they want him to be this violent, carnage inducing presence, someone who really can batter Batman, which we've not seen in Nolans films at all. And I say that as someone who thinks Bane is a dumb character normally.

Theres a lot of talk about quite how they're going to end it all, and one theme has caught peoples imagination and I would not be surprised to see it be true.

I'm interested in how they're going to tie it into Begins. We know Neeson has filmed some scenes, but I think it's fair to accept that Nolan is not going to follow the comics with his character (Ra's al Ghul is immortal effectively in the comics), so he's dead. That then leads to the rumours that the film is going to set up Bane as an agent for the League of Shadows, basically making Bane into what they wanted Bruce Wayne to be when they trained him in Begins. I think that might have some merit.

Lending a bit more mystery to that though, is Marion Cottilard. She's a fairly well known name now and is, allegedly, playing an original character who doesn't appear to be that important to all this on the face of things. She's apparently a Wayne Enterprises board member who is allied to Bruce and his aims. Just a new love interest? Maybe. But she was spotted on set in a very non board member-y costume, quite Eastern looking... with some blokes dressed up like they meant business. All the talk has been that she's actually playing a double role as Talia al Ghul, Neeson's character's daughter, who has in the comics jumped around from being an enemy to an ally of Batman (and back again), and usually with a love interest angle. Cottilard has denied that of course, at every turn, but no-one quite believes her and the pictures of her on set just added to that a little.

I would put money on Cottilard playing Talia in a mole like capacity in Wayne Enterprises, getting to Bruce and infiltrating Gotham for the League of Shadows, while Bane does the dirty work, causing chaos, and removing Batman from the equation entirely.

Then you've got Joseph Gordon Levitt. Apparently he's also just playing a pretty minor sounding role, but again you have to wonder why a rising property in Hollywood is going to play what appears to be a fairly minor role in the supporting cast. I'm sure theres going to be more to his 'beat cop assigned to a special task for Gordon', but quite what I'm unsure.

And then you've got the fit Catwoman into all of it.

It's going to be a good ride. I still don't think it's going to stand up to TDK, but little could (even with it's problems, it's a superb film), and I still think it might be the weakest of the films, but it's still going to be a good ride.

[kidlewis]

I cannot imagine Nolan leaving the end of the film with Wayne quadraspazzed. It's just not going to happen.

I think they will do much of what chindie says but Wayne will come back to kick ass at the end as he does in the comics once he realises Azrael has been a naughty little boy.

I presume Azrael isn't in the film, otherwise it's going to be about 5 hours long to get all that story in.

I think parts of Legacy is going to come into it, I can only see the "rematch" being the end of this movie. Don't you reckon Chind?

[Chindie]

More spoiler-y discussion

I'm not saying they're going to completely do Knightfall - it'd take too long and would have people utterly pissing themselves in the aisles because it's very a 'comic-y' story. Theres not a chance in hell they'll do Azrael. What they will do is pinch bits of it, mainly Batman getting broken at some point.

I, like you, think they'll have Bane **** over Batman badly fairly early into the film, he'll have a period of recovery and will return to kick righteous vengeful ass by the end.

I would have a little speculative bet that the end is the end of this Batman in this mythos though. I wouldn't be too surprised if Batmans return from getting **** by Bane proves to be some sort of end for him too, whether that be that they actually kill him off (maybe be a bit much for the audience), or leave him so ruined by the effort to take out Bane once and for all that his caped crusadering is done. I think Gordon-Levitt may come in there though. I think he might play a role in Batmans return to beat Bane, and Bruce will 'pass on the cowl' to him, the film ending with Bruce retiring/getting buried, and Levitts character preparing to carry on the Bats role in Gotham.

So, if I'm right, and I am going on a limb with some of it, you'd pick up a few nods and elements from Knightfall arc - Bane **** up Batman, Batman has to fight back to strength to return and beat down Bane, but the effort from that ends Bruce Waynes time as Batman, and in a nod to Azrael, someone else takes up the costume.

I think Nolan would be tempted to underline that it's end of his Batman and Bruce Wayne with this film, and having him give up at the end somehow would put a full stop on the story he wants to tell and let him walk away.

[kurtsimonw]

I watched the 6-minute prologue thing online.

I'm not sure I'll be able to sit through the whole movie if that's what Bane sounds like. He actually looks better than he sounds and that's saying something. Jesus Christ.

[Ingram85]

Gordon-Levitt = Different take on Robin/Nightwing maybe?

Essentially going from frustration at being just a beat cop and wanting to make a difference to caped crusading crime fighter?

Probably not.

[kidlewis]

there is no way WB will leave this franchise another 10 years before someone else picks it up.

I think there is a plan for Bale to hand over. Back in the day it worked with bond to a point. Cinema has changed but I believe if done right and there is progression there is no reason why it couldn't continue. There is enough diversity there to make it possible.

Nolan will walk away but WB won't.

[Chindie]

Of course there'll be more Batman films. They'll give it a break and bring it back with a new man, and probably cock it up.

I'm still convinced that Nolan will underline the fact that his take on Batman is done with this film, by having Bale's Bruce Wayne give up the cape... somehow.

My guess at Levitt's role is that he will, in some way, be asked to carry on as the new Bat, which you could think of as a nod to Nightwing, and also give Nolan a slight out if he does decide to 'retire' Wayne - I don't think he'd want his legacy of the films to be one of being the man who 'ended' Batman. Letting another character take the cowl lets him get away with both.

And of course when Warner Brothers do bring out a new Batman film in the future, they'll just ignore that, and the new man will be Bruce Wayne again.

[kidlewis]

Unless they go down the night wing route. I wonder which part of that storyline theyd begin with

[Demitri_C]

any mention of robin in this one?

[Chindie]

Nolan has said he had no interest in Robin. He's a smart man.

[Demitri_C]

thank god for that

[Chindie]

Unless they go down the night wing route. I wonder which part of that storyline theyd begin with

Nah, Nightwing isn't 'a thing' to the general public. A Nightwing movie, unless it cost £3.50, would struggle. And rightly so, 'cos Emo-Batman sucks.

The closest you'd get to Nightwing in this movie imo is a nod to Bruce Wayne no longer being the Bat, which is of course a brief part of the Nightwing history (and of course Azrael's origin, but that story has ludicrous baggage). But you'd not have a name check of Nightwing (or Robin), it'd just be Bruce Wayne handing over the responsibility to someone else at the end. However he chooses to do that. And your fanboys in the crowd will be able to go 'Yeah that's part of the Nightwing story, cool!'

It'd be an interesting way to round out Nolan's trilogy and I wouldn't bet against him doing it. He's only ever been interested in Bruce Wayne's story (hence no Robin talk, stupid character that brings a load of it's own baggage), and all the marketing for this is all about the 'end' of the legend. Even the choice of villain is a nod to it - Bane is the character that most famously made Bruce Wayne unable to be Batman. It'd be a ballsy move too - the comics have knocked Wayne out of it countless times, but no movie has. With Nolan definitely leaving the franchise alone after this, along with numerous cast members, it'd be a definitive 'end' to his dealing with Batman but leave enough of a happy ending/continuation of the Batman character to not leave everyone a downer ending. And it ain't like Warner Brothers are going to continue the franchise with whatever Nolan does at the end of this as canon.

Anywho, the marketing for this has taken a whole different swing to the TDK. It's a little strange really, given the way films are marketed these days. By now, 4 months out from release, TDK had a huge viral campaign in full swing, the I Believe in Harvey Dent stuff floating around and all the rest. Nothing like that for this. We've had a a teaser, a trailer (there'll be more you'd have to reckon, a launch trailer at the very least), the prologue, some set shots... and thats about it. For such a big film, it's fairly quiet.

With the release of the Avengers coming soon, my hypes died off a little for this, but it's still my second most anticipated movie of the year. With those 2 and the Hobbit Part One, big big big year in movies for me.