Bolitics The New Condem Government

[drat01]

 

Embarrassed to say my local council is now UKIP. I'm living amongst **** idiots.

I personally see UKIP as a slightly legitimized BNP. You see the same people on facebook who'd champion them, now doing so with UKIP. It sickens me that the media continually give UKIP a mouthpiece regarding immigration and Europe and fail to air any other policies which will affect our day to day living. Harder questions need to be asked.

I am very sorry to break this to you, but the BNP are perfectly legitimate in our democracy.

I am not a student of UKIP policy, as I have not considered voting for them as yet, but my take on them is that they are anti the EU superstate, and anti open borders EU immigration.

Maybe the left take that UKIP's anti open borders immigration is also anti-immigration full stop is correct. Or maybe it suits the left agenda to peddle that line.

I shall read up on them prior to the next General Election, but there is plenty of time for that yet.

 

Again - your "defence" of UKIP is to resort to a "the left ......"  etc. Why is that exactly?

 

The easy and frankly absurd rhetoric (IMO) f words like the EU Superstate plays exactly to the stupidity and borderline racist mutterings that we get from UKIP HQ. Surely mate you know that commerce rules the world now and commerce is certainly not single state. In a simplistic way UKIP want a return to the Little Englander approach of the 1950's which has no place whatsoever in a modern society.

 

EU reform is needed, it's constantly needed because no organisation like that can ever stand still. UKIP are certainly not the way for reform because they are build far too much of prejudice and restriction something that commerce cannot accommodate

[donnie]

Embarrassed to say my local council is now UKIP. I'm living amongst **** idiots.

I personally see UKIP as a slightly legitimized BNP. You see the same people on facebook who'd champion them, now doing so with UKIP. It sickens me that the media continually give UKIP a mouthpiece regarding immigration and Europe and fail to air any other policies which will affect our day to day living. Harder questions need to be asked.

I agree with your sentiments and the legitimacy of basic racist policies by organisations such as the BBC is somewhat amazing.

The typical UKIP supporter issues rhetoric with little thought about consequence and cause I have found and when you start to question them as is perfectly reasonable there is a typical retort of blaming "foreigners". Questioning of UKIP supporters on key issues such as NHS, Welfare, Taxation, Infrastructure and there is little in the way of a reasoned response.

Maybe now there Andy Warhole 10 mins of fame will expose what the party is about and what they stand for?

But no major party has released their manifesto's yet.

Labour and conservative are established parties that have had similar on going policies for years. UKIP are a relatively new party.

Im convinced that in this 'celebrity culture' we live in these days, sadly, a large percentage of people care less about the parties policies but more about the public face of who is in charge.

Farage has more personality in his little toe than the others put together and he certainly connects with the voters more than cameron, milibrand and dick smegg. Farage comes across more natural than the others as well. Whether you can trust him or not is another matter.

Milibrand is a wet blanket. He just does not connect with the voter, seems slightly weird and always looks like he is about to nod off. His public speaking ability is beyond embrassing. Like the bacon sandwich picture, which to me and you seems like nothing, but to alot of people this adds to his 'weirdness'.This is not the face of labour that should be in charge.

Id normally take no notice of the european results but being so close to a general election it will certainly be intresting to see how well UKIP will do.

Edited May 27, 2014 by donnie

[drat01]

Eh? - All of the parties disclosed policies as part of the run up to last weeks elections. UKIP chose not to because they basically have nothing or realise they will be seriously exposed if they do so. Going on what UKIP have stated before, what their members have been reported on saying in the press over the past few years its pretty easy to draw up some accurate idea of what motivates them and their supporters I would suggest.

 

I agree with your comment re Celebrity and am a long time hater of the Pop Idol political views that seem to hold so much influence. (Note: I can't see how you can state that though and then make the comment re Milliband just a few sentences later !) - also interesting that you fail to comment on Cameron .... :-)

[donnie]

Eh? - All of the parties disclosed policies as part of the run up to last weeks elections. UKIP chose not to because they basically have nothing or realise they will be seriously exposed if they do so. Going on what UKIP have stated before, what their members have been reported on saying in the press over the past few years its pretty easy to draw up some accurate idea of what motivates them and their supporters I would suggest.

I agree with your comment re Celebrity and am a long time hater of the Pop Idol political views that seem to hold so much influence. (Note: I can't see how you can state that though and then make the comment re Milliband just a few sentences later !) - also interesting that you fail to comment on Cameron .... :-)

Oh if I had to choose than milliband all day. But its true (sky and other media sources conducted polls proving this) that the public image of Milliband is doing more harm than good for labour and yes he does come across as a very awkard guy. As much as I want to vote labour, I just cant vote for this buffoon.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

Embarrassed to say my local council is now UKIP. I'm living amongst **** idiots.

I personally see UKIP as a slightly legitimized BNP. You see the same people on facebook who'd champion them, now doing so with UKIP. It sickens me that the media continually give UKIP a mouthpiece regarding immigration and Europe and fail to air any other policies which will affect our day to day living. Harder questions need to be asked.

 

I agree with your sentiments and the legitimacy of basic racist policies by organisations such as the BBC is somewhat amazing.

 

The typical UKIP supporter issues rhetoric with little thought about consequence and cause I have found and when you start to question them as is perfectly reasonable there is a typical retort of blaming "foreigners". Questioning of UKIP supporters on key issues such as NHS, Welfare, Taxation, Infrastructure and there is little in the way of a reasoned response.

 

Maybe now there Andy Warhole 10 mins of fame will expose what the party is about and what they stand for?

 

 

Although, to be honest, I often wish that the so-called main parties didn't have policies for things like the NHS, welfare etc, I just wish they would try to get the present system to run properly, instead of plans to introduce some blue-sky scheme or another, which will create as many, if not more, problems than before.

 

The meddlesome ignoramuses of government do nothing but harm.

 

Cetainly, Labour's plan of giving GPs massive pay rises and ending house-calls, didn't exactly improve the system.

 

And if the future is permanent coalition, what is the point of making pledges, if a party is then forced to ditch them and end up looking a wuss, like Cleggy.

[bickster]

There is no policy to read up on though. Farage basically said their most recent manifesto doesn't reflect their party, and they haven't announced policies to replace it.

I am not sure that any party has a policy for the next General Election yet. That is why I am happy to wait.

Greens certainly have

 

The Greens' manifesto on their site is dated 2010.

 

The question is whether manifestos should be updated to account for changing priorities and to reflect the shift in voters' perceptions/demands. 

Should give you a very accurate idea of current Green policy Not an official Green website but that is their current position and as the Green Party is a democratic organisation, nothing changes until their next 6 monthly conference.

[drat01]

 

Eh? - All of the parties disclosed policies as part of the run up to last weeks elections. UKIP chose not to because they basically have nothing or realise they will be seriously exposed if they do so. Going on what UKIP have stated before, what their members have been reported on saying in the press over the past few years its pretty easy to draw up some accurate idea of what motivates them and their supporters I would suggest.

I agree with your comment re Celebrity and am a long time hater of the Pop Idol political views that seem to hold so much influence. (Note: I can't see how you can state that though and then make the comment re Milliband just a few sentences later !) - also interesting that you fail to comment on Cameron .... :-)

Oh if I had to choose than milliband all day. But its true (sky and other media sources conducted polls proving this) that the public image of Milliband is doing more harm than good for labour and yes he does come across as a very awkard guy. As much as I want to vote labour, I just cant vote for this buffoon.

 

 

You are not voting for him though are you unless you live in Doncaster and that is what the Donnie bit means? - if so fancy a beer before the Chesterfield pre season match?  :-)

 

I wish people would actually start to look at policy and impact as a way of voting but as you said before that probably wont happen these days. I suppose when you see the MP's etc resorting to personal abuse (see Gideon attack on Brown previously as a perfect example) as a way of influencing then you know the slippery path towards the abyss that is US style politics is getting slippier and more increased.

 

I rarely watch QT these days because of the idiocy of the whole show that some feel they have to put on, I prefer to read what was said rather than how the person looked etc

[Kingfisher]

There is no policy to read up on though. Farage basically said their most recent manifesto doesn't reflect their party, and they haven't announced policies to replace it.

I am not sure that any party has a policy for the next General Election yet. That is why I am happy to wait.

Greens certainly have

The Greens' manifesto on their site is dated 2010.

The question is whether manifestos should be updated to account for changing priorities and to reflect the shift in voters' perceptions/demands.

They do need to update it. They need to change the date at the top to 2014. Since 2010 nothing has changed, different year same old shit causing the same old problems.

[donnie]

Eh? - All of the parties disclosed policies as part of the run up to last weeks elections. UKIP chose not to because they basically have nothing or realise they will be seriously exposed if they do so. Going on what UKIP have stated before, what their members have been reported on saying in the press over the past few years its pretty easy to draw up some accurate idea of what motivates them and their supporters I would suggest.

I agree with your comment re Celebrity and am a long time hater of the Pop Idol political views that seem to hold so much influence. (Note: I can't see how you can state that though and then make the comment re Milliband just a few sentences later !) - also interesting that you fail to comment on Cameron .... :-)

Oh if I had to choose than milliband all day. But its true (sky and other media sources conducted polls proving this) that the public image of Milliband is doing more harm than good for labour and yes he does come across as a very awkard guy. As much as I want to vote labour, I just cant vote for this buffoon.

You are not voting for him though are you unless you live in Doncaster and that is what the Donnie bit means? - if so fancy a beer before the Chesterfield pre season match? :-)

I wish people would actually start to look at policy and impact as a way of voting but as you said before that probably wont happen these days. I suppose when you see the MP's etc resorting to personal abuse (see Gideon attack on Brown previously as a perfect example) as a way of influencing then you know the slippery path towards the abyss that is US style politics is getting slippier and more increased.

I rarely watch QT these days because of the idiocy of the whole show that some feel they have to put on, I prefer to read what was said rather than how the person looked etc

Near lichfield im afraid :-) Donnie came from seeing the dvd 'donnie darko' on my shelf, I love the name so chose that.

The problem with people looking at policies when deciding who to vote for is that their is so little difference to choose between the tories and labour (lib dems are no longer relevant) that for most it now comes down to the 'face' of the person in charge and who they can connect with. A working class lad like me cant connect with eton educated Cameron and I also cant connect with a weirdo who cant eat a bacon sandwich without looking strange :-)

I know you disagree (I feel it is only fair to have differing fews on politics on here to add balance to the forum although I know alot on here seem less tolerant towards people who dont share their 'lefty' views), but I dont beleive UKIP are a racist party. I dont see how wanting to control immigration like our friends in Canada and Australia do, not stop immigration like alot of people scream out, is racist??

Its refreshing to see a party like UKIP that offers something different to the others come to the fore. Id also be delighted if a party like the Greens also saw a huge surge in popularity. Having real left (not the tree hugging sterotype) and right (not racist scum like BNP) parties to vote for rather than the same old tories and labour is refreshing.

Edited May 27, 2014 by donnie

[bickster]

I dont beleive UKIP are a racist party.

Read what Peter posted a page or so back regarding what UKIPs founder thinks of them now

[Kingfisher]

Well UKIP are a bunch of xenophobic idiots, and the party has no policies outside of immigration. They've used fear and prejudice as a political tool. That is a fair and accurate summation of that party based on evidence.

What we know of their political leanings is that their policies on the economy and taxation will be very much the same old shit that we're getting now. Tax breaks for the rich, paid for by more cuts to public services. I don't see how that can be attractive to 'a working class lad' like Donnie?

As for Milliband, Labour should be hammering the government with their atrocious record at this point. He's no conviction or bravery. He's trying to not upset anybody, big business, the Rothemere press, the Murdoch press, the middle classes.

[Tayls]

Eh? - All of the parties disclosed policies as part of the run up to last weeks elections. UKIP chose not to because they basically have nothing or realise they will be seriously exposed if they do so. Going on what UKIP have stated before, what their members have been reported on saying in the press over the past few years its pretty easy to draw up some accurate idea of what motivates them and their supporters I would suggest.

I agree with your comment re Celebrity and am a long time hater of the Pop Idol political views that seem to hold so much influence. (Note: I can't see how you can state that though and then make the comment re Milliband just a few sentences later !) - also interesting that you fail to comment on Cameron .... :-)

Oh if I had to choose than milliband all day. But its true (sky and other media sources conducted polls proving this) that the public image of Milliband is doing more harm than good for labour and yes he does come across as a very awkard guy. As much as I want to vote labour, I just cant vote for this buffoon.

Ahhhh, does Milliband remind you of a Creature Comforts character also?

[MakemineVanilla]

The problem with the Left's obsession with spouting slogans about racism and xenophobia is that it diverts them away from actually examining whether Europe is damaging to ordinary people or not.

 

Are they actually avoiding finding out, it makes me wonder.

 

It always seems that arguments about Europe are deliberately made as narrow as possible so questions about just how democratic and accountable the EU is, are avoided, and the issue of immigration is confined to whether it is good for the receiving country, which excludes debate about whether it is bad for the countries which emigrants abandon or sectors of people in the receiving country.

 

The assumption that the interests with the UK government are same as the interests of the population, is another specious assumption that never gets challenged.

 

I hasten to add, that as I consider myself a Lefty, I make the above accusations against myself too. 

[mjmooney]

Political voting has become all too 'Pop Idol'. How on earth can we elect our government based on the parties' leaders' appearance, or whether they 'seem like a good bloke'?  

 

What percentage of voters have the faintest idea what the various parties' actual policies are, and what they mean in relation to their own lives? 

 

I'm starting to think that there should be an educational qualification for voting. 

[Kingfisher]

If there is a problem with immigration nobody has convinced me. I'm completely turned off by the debate. It's a debate the right are having between themselves, and if it grew up and stated its case better I might get interested.

Otherwise to me it just stinks of right wing politicians playing politics, and it's disgusting the way this 'problem' has been manufactured for political reasons. It's politicians tapping into people's irrational fears. It's horrible and completely irresponsible.

So no, I don't see immigration as a problem. It's the government I want to kick out, not the immigrants.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/reality-check/2014/mar/05/immigration-migration-british-jobs-economy-newsnight-

[peterms]

The problem with the Left's obsession with spouting slogans about racism and xenophobia is that it diverts them away from actually examining whether Europe is damaging to ordinary people or not.

 

 

I'd say the common view on the left is that the EU is being run in the interests of international capital at the expense of ordinary people.  An example would be the current campaign against TTIP, a campaign which as far as I can see is only coming from the left.

 

Within that broad critical view, there are those on the left who think the UK should stay in the EU and fight for change, both in respect of specific policies like this and more broadly about changing the structures to make them more democratic, open and accountable, and those who think we should get out.

[MakemineVanilla]

If there is a problem with immigration nobody has convinced me. I'm completely turned off by the debate. It's a debate the right are having between themselves, and if it grew up and stated its case better I might get interested.

Otherwise to me it just stinks of right wing politicians playing politics, and it's disgusting the way this 'problem' has been manufactured for political reasons. It's politicians tapping into people's irrational fears. It's horrible and completely irresponsible.

So no, I don't see immigration as a problem. It's the government I want to kick out, not the immigrants.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/reality-check/2014/mar/05/immigration-migration-british-jobs-economy-newsnight-

 

It has to be noted that the article does not say that all claims that immigration damages British jobs are wrong, it just says that they are exaggerated.

 

So yes, immigration damages British jobs: so they dispute the statements not the fact of British jobs being damaged.

 

But it is a narrow argument because the damage to British jobs may not be only confined to making it more difficult for British people to get a job, it is also likely that the oversupply of labour has pushed wages downwards or at prevented market forces from raising them.

 

The interesting thing about the Guardian is that while they attack anyone who suggests immigration disadvantages British workers, they also attack Gove for suggesting that qualifications for teachers should be lowered.

 

There was a lot of talk about educational standards but the real concern was that lowering qualifications, would open up the profession for competition from immigrant school teachers whose qualifications they conveniently don't recognise.

 

So as ever, the middle-classes are protected, while low skilled workers are not, and who are condemned as xenophobic/racists if they demand it.

[chrisp65]

Political voting has become all too 'Pop Idol'. How on earth can we elect our government based on the parties' leaders' appearance, or whether they 'seem like a good bloke'?  

 

What percentage of voters have the faintest idea what the various parties' actual policies are, and what they mean in relation to their own lives? 

 

I'm starting to think that there should be an educational qualification for voting. 

 

This is the thought you dare not say out loud, even in a democracy, should there be some basic test of competence to place a vote.

 

To have people on this forum, capable of operating a modern piece of i.t. kit and capable of writing a passable message in written english yet still saying they wouldn't vote Labour because regardless of policies the leader looks like a wally in selected photos......well it's grim.

 

Yes, it's their right to select a future path for my kids based on how somebody eats a bacon sandwich, but should they?

 

 

Oh, and whilst I'm at it, Bicksters comment a while back about policy and manifesto being held back pre election is because they want to know what's popular that will get them voted into power rather than what they believe in. Bang On.

 

What's trending? is not a legitimate manifesto stance. Sack off the lot of them.

[Avfc96]

[Risso]

How many Polish-born people have settled in the UK in the last 10 years, half a million or so?  Has that had an effect on the country in terms of unemployment, wages and public services etc?  Makeminvilla makes some good points.  Because people are afraid to discuss those sorts of questions, UKIP are filling the information void, very successfully.  And whether that migration has had a positive effect, or a negative effect, it happened without the people of the UK having much of a say in it.  That's also where they're making capital.