Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[Jondaken]

Tbh, I wasnt going to vote at all before this, think Labour have just won me over.

[markavfc40]

Must be so tempting to just come out and say:

"Actually, to be quite honest, I found the lady's views to be repugnant and so far removed from my own, that I felt her views to be offensive. This is a democracy and an election campaign. Evidently I won't have her vote, but then again, I'm not interested in courting the votes of those with such hostile viewpoints - she's all yours David / Nick G."

Spot on.

The only **** up Brown has made here is that he didn't realise he was still miked up.

I doubt anyone with any sense could give too monkeys **** if he thinks some woman is bigoted and it certainly won't be affecting anyones vote.

[PauloBarnesi]

Its definitely made the day more interesting.

Certainly enabled some to spit out some pretty spiteful childish bile when you would think they would be more concerned with Power

Policies .................. nah they can wait until June

At least Brown couldn't deny what he said as people heard it. Shame all political people are not like that - some tell lies.

Don’t you find it a newsworthy story? If Clegg, Cameron, or the lesser known candidates had done this it would have been a major story and would have been really interesting as well. Brown needs to bounce back, and if he can people will think “well done”, if he can’t it will be a major blow. I am amazed he’s letting Mandy take control of the situation.

I think Labour have an issue over the issue of immigration, as do the other two; the Liberals seem ‘wooly’, the Tories don’t want to seem to be ‘extremist’. The two seats that the BNP are targeting are traditionally Labour strongholds; Barking and Stoke-on-Trent central. In Barking Margaret Hodge, the current MP has already raised the issue, much to the constenation of some other Labour supporters. She probably won’t lose her seat, but I bet she isn’t putting any money on it. In Stoke the Labour party is in chaos after Mandy delivered his preferred candidate in, Tristram Hunt (son of a lord, with a posh name!). But in both immigration is a key issue, and like the debt at times seems like the elephant in the room. Gordon probably wishes it wasn’t on the agenda, like Clegg and Cameron, but it is isn’t it? All the parties need to fill the vacuum else the BNP will do it for them.

And we can all agree that would be a disaster.

[Richard]

some tell lies.

Lots of people tell lies not just politicians

[mjmooney]

Just imagine if Winston Churchill had been miked up when he was PM.

In fact, here's an apposite quotation from the old feller:

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter".

[Jondaken]

some tell lies.

Lots of people tell lies not just politicians

Everyone tells lies.

[Chindie]

Just imagine if Winston Churchill had been miked up when he was PM.

In fact, here's an apposite quotation from the old feller:

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter".

He was right. Worryingly.

:|

[JulieB]

Its definitely made the day more interesting.

It has and I'm a complete agnostic where politics is concerned!

With the TV debates and the body language experts analysing there every move, I don't think anyone can claim this campaign hasn't been anything less than entertaining...the outtakes on Sky red button are just great.

I actually felt a bit sorry for Brown, because I'll bet Clegg & Cameron have all been there...just didn't happen to have a microphone attached at the time. I wish he'd stop smiling though.. it looks so false!

[thetrees]

So Gordon's human, so what?

He should be kicked out on his arse, without a pension, for giving away our gold, plundering our pensions, and destroying our economy for generations to come.

Not for referring to someone as a bigot, who might be anyway.

[drat01]

It's newsworthy only because that is the way the media works. In an election where so little has occurred in terms of any debate on policy and how they would happen or not as the case may be, the biggest stories to date are about image. I suppose that says a lot about the motivation of those who like to play in the political arena

If immigration is a major topic then raise it with the full facts and not those of the ultra right. To glibly say "eastern Europeans" is frankly worrying, for lots of reasons. You are right though in terms of people not wanting to discuss it . UKIP / BNP have a similar immigration policy, and despite what you may hear in some of the popular press the UK does not just have an open door to anyone and everyone.

Risso said earlier he was enjoying this election, personally all I think it has done is show how dumb down the UK has become. Its a talent (or less) show, a beauty pageant, with so little about what people would bring to the country. Maybe that is what drives people to be in politics now, the desire to be liked and how you would stop at nowt to gain that position at the top?

EDIT: That is not saying Risso is dumb ................. I apologise - can I have a cup of tea?

[TheDon]

It has and I'm a complete agnostic where politics is concerned!

You're unsure if we'll ever have knowledge over anything to do with politics?

That's a pretty odd stance to have!

[PauloBarnesi]

It's newsworthy only because that is the way the media works.

So you think that the Guardian should ignore it? Once the genie leaves the bottle you can’t put it back. Most stories have a life span before they burn out. The media aren’t stupid; they know when the story becomes unimportant or people lose interest.

[avfc89]

Don't be surprised to see people voting for BNP in places like Rochdale and Oldham etc.

[drat01]

Did I say the Guardian should ignore it Paul? bloody hell this is now getting stupid. The last I heard the Guardian is a part of the media and they despite not sinking to the levels of the Sun etc, are still led by stories that they think the people would like to read. That does not make it right though for a political / election agenda when the main and you could possibly argue the only subject should be policy

Maybe following it on twitter is better - "GB was misheard ... he actually referred to her as "Big Titted"!" / "Exclusive interview with Gillian Duffy's niece. Channel 4 News at 7."

[PauloBarnesi]

Gordon Brown's gaffe packs more of a punch than Prescott's jab in 2001

The prime minister with his head in his hands is likely to be the defining image of the 2010 campaign

Tweet this (1)

Comments (2)

Michael White

guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 28 April 2010 16.42 BST

Article history

Will Gordon Brown ever recover from his gaffe? Photograph: David Fisher/Rex Features

Are we calling it Duffygate yet? Not that I've heard, but give it time. Is Gordon Brown's campaign gaffe important? Not really, not a matter of life and death. Will it matter? Yes. Brown with his head in his hands is likely to be the defining image of the 2010 campaign.

He's just emerged from Gillian Duffy's front door, his smile restored, to face the throng of cameras and what sounds like a small-but-loyal bunch of cheering supporters. It had all been a misunderstanding, his apology had been accepted, he declared.

"I am a penitent sinner," Brown added. Will that be it? Will voters and media now turn back to those tax-and-spending figures with which we started the day? Nope, Duffygate is simpler and easier to understand. It will resonate.

Why? Partly because it sheds light on Brown's instinctive tendency to look for someone to blame when things go wrong – Tony Blair for a decade or so, pensioner and widow, Mrs Duffy, for a few seconds in Rochdale yesterday.

In this instance the name in the frame was that of Sue Nye, Brown's ultra-loyal right-hand woman and gatekeeper, a tough but self-effacing party activist who has served successive Labour leaders – all but John Smith and Blair – since (wait for it) Jim Callaghan who left the job in 1980.

"Bigot" is not a great word over which to apologise either, especially when reporters who heard the original encounter thought it was perfectly amiable. It's OK to raise concerns about immigrants from eastern Europe, isn't it?

The incident reinforces the old impression that GB doesn't easily do dialogue. Cabinet colleagues, past and present, may be tempted to confirm that suggestion. Gordon Brown likes control. " He shut me down completely," Mrs Duffy is saying. And "what was bigoted about that? I asked about the national debt."

It also resonates because we live in an era when elections are heavily scripted. So there is a premium on whatever scraps of spontaneity that escape from the campaign managers' grid. This was 2010's equivalent of John Prescott's left jab in 2001, albeit without its redeeming side.

It wouldn't have mattered much if a reporter had merely overheard the prime minister muttering about an unsatisfactory encounter with a voter. But, as with John Major's cabinet "bastards" remark, it was caught by a microphone. That makes it toxic.

The vultures, political, media and voters – me included – are busy milking it on air. "There but for the grace of God goes anyone who has ever worn a live microphone" would be the generous response. Hey, he's under pressure, he forgot. But not everyone is kind in an election. Bloggers, tweeters, phone-in callers, ex-tabloid editors, are roasting him.

So Nick Clegg has shown instinctive good judgement and taste in saying that we all make mistakes and that he won't join in. But you should always respect different points of view, Clegg added, gently twisting the knife. George Osborne seems to have been more exuberant.

I suppose it's possible that things will look different by dawn. The Sun's attack on his handwriting when he wrote to bereaved parents of a dead soldier backfired, rightly so. It won't be like this on this occasion as the muttered criticism gets replayed endlessly.

Peter Mandelson is on air doing damage limitation, gallant of him after all that GB once did to him. We all "say things we do not mean," he says. " What will upset Gordon is the hurt caused to her."

Nice Andy Burnham, a loyal boy in Lancashire, is saying Brown is " his own harshest critic". Oddly enough, that's probably true – but only in the small hours of the night when no microphones are on.

Mrs Duffy's postal vote is not expected to be cast its usual Labour way.

Gordon Brown's gaffe packs more of a punch than Prescott's jab in 2001

[PauloBarnesi]

EXCHANGE IN ROCHDALE

1141 BST: While on a walkabout in Rochdale, Greater Manchester, Mr Brown speaks to Mrs Duffy.

Gillian Duffy: How are you going to get us out of all this debt, Gordon?

PM: Well, deficit reduction plan, cut the debt by half over the next four years, we've got the plans, they've been set out to do it. Look, I was the person who came in...

BROWN'S 'BIGOTED' JIBE

Brown apology for 'bigoted' jibe

Nick Robinson: 'That was a disaster'

Profile of the woman behind row

Analysis: Why it matters

Gaffes caught on microphone

Reaction to comments

dot.Rory: Never forget live mic

Your views on Brown's comment

GD: Three main things what I was drummed in when I was a child was education, health service and looking after people who are vulnerable.

PM: And that's what...

GD: But there's too many people now who aren't vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can't get claim, can't get it.

PM: But they shouldn't be doing that. There's no life on the dole for people any more. If you're unemployed you've got to go back to work. It's six months...

GD: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're... all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?

PM: A million people come from Europe but a million people, British people, have gone into Europe. You do know that there's a lot of British people staying in Europe as well?

BROWN COMMENTS IN CAR

brown sub-titled

1144 BST: Mr Brown gets in a car and is driven away - while still wearing his microphone.

PM: That was a disaster. Should never have put me with that woman ... whose idea was that?

Second voice: I don't know, I didn't see her.

PM: It's Sue, I think. It's just ridiculous. (Muffled sounds)

SV: What did she say?

PM: Ugh, everything - she's just a sort of bigoted woman, said she used to be Labour. It's just ridiculous.

GILLIAN DUFFY'S RESPONSE

1229 BST: Mrs Duffy speaks to reporters.

Iain Watson (BBC): We are live at the moment, the prime minister's being interviewed by the BBC, what would you like to say to the prime minister?

Gillian Duffy: "I want to know why I was called a bigot"

GD: I'm not saying anything more to him.

IW: Are you disappointed?

GD: I am really disappointed.

Niall Paterson (Sky): Mrs Duffy you came here with very specific concerns about your pension, and he responded positively to those, you thought?

GD: It was about the tax being paid and pensions, and the national debt.

NP: But you've just watched that, you've heard the prime minister's words in the Sky truck? What is your instant reaction to that?

GD: Very upsetting, I'm very upset.

IW: Did you expect that from him?

GD: No. He's an educated person, why has he come up with words like that? He's going to lead this country and he's calling an ordinary woman who has just come up and asked him questions - what most people would ask him, they're not doing anything about the national debt, it's going to be tax, tax, tax for another 20 years to get out of this national debt - and he's calling me a bigot.

NP: You told me you were a lifelong Labour supporter, then you have a postal vote registered, will you be sending that?

GD: No.

IW: You also told me earlier, you said when I asked will he stay at No 10 and you said, hopefully he will.

GD: Well, I'm not bothered whether he does will not now. I don't think he will.

IW: Do you think he should meet more voters like you?

GD: I'm sure he should go out into the public and find out what's going on with our lives...

(Mrs Duffy takes a call on her mobile phone)

NP: Let's just - if we can - talk about why you were here in the first place. The prime minister has been at great pains this week to try and get out and speak to real people.

GD: Why has he come here to this place? Why didn't he go into Rochdale where a lot of people could have spoken to him? In the town centre? Why is he here?(Flurry of reporters' questions) Well, I should think so. Nobody knew he was here, did they? I was walking up the street and the police said the road's cordoned off. Then I saw... I asked the policeman, 'Is Gordon Brown here?' And he said, 'Yes, up there.' So I came up to ask him what is he going to do about the national debt.

NP: And when he responded to you, before he got in the car and said what he said I mean, what was your reaction to the way in which he had dealt with your complaints?

GD: Well I thought he was understanding but he wasn't, was he? The way he's come out with those comments in the car.

NP: What did you think of his character before this event? He's obviously said he's a moral compass, he's honest.

GD: I only met him for two of three or four minutes in that interview. His character on TV? Well, he hasn't really enthralled me with his speeches... but I like Blair, Tony Blair.

NP: Why do you think Gordon Brown said what he said?

GD: I don't know. You tell me. You saw me talking to him.

NP: Is that what you expect of a politician, a prime minister?

GD: No. No I don't.

NP: Before today, what was your view of Gordon Brown as a man, as a politician?

GD: I can't tell you as a man. As a politician, when he was chancellor he did very good things for the country. But now it's just all gone to pot. You've got to sort it out else we'll be paying, your children and grandchildren will be paying for all of this debt.

BROWN'S APOLOGY ON JEREMY VINE

Brown: "I apologise if I've said anything that has been hurtful"

1244 BST: Mr Brown is quizzed about the incident on BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine programme.

PM: I apologise if I have said anything like that. What I think she was raising with me was an issue about immigration and saying that there were too many people from eastern Europe in the country. And I do apologise if I have said anything that has been hurtful and I will apologise to her personally.

(Recording is played)

Jeremy Vine: That is what you said. Is she not allowed to express her view to you?

PM: Of course she's allowed to express her view and I was saying that. The problem was that I was dealing with a question that she raised about immigration and I wasn't given a chance to answer it because we had a whole melee of press around us. But of course I apologise if I said anything that has been offensive and I would never put myself in a position where I would want to say anything like that about a woman I met. It was a question about immigration that really I think was annoying.

JV: You're blaming a member of staff there, Sue.

PM: No, I'm blaming myself. I blame myself for what is done. But you've got to remember this was me being helpful to the broadcasters with my microphone on, rushing into the car because I had to get to another appointment, and they've chosen to play my private conversation with the person who was in the car with me. I know these things can happen. I apologise profusely to the lady concerned. I don't think she is that, I think it was just the view that she expressed that I was worried about that I couldn't respond to.

PM VISITS MRS DUFFY

1542: Mr Brown speaks to reporters after meeting Mrs Duffy at her home.

PM: I've just been talking to Gillian. I'm mortified by what's happened. I've given her my sincere apologies.

Brown: 'I made a mistake and am sorry'

I misunderstood what she said and she has accepted that there was a misunderstanding and she has accepted my apology.

If you like, I'm a penitent sinner. Sometimes you say things that you don't mean to say, sometimes you say things by mistake and sometimes when you say things you want to correct it very quickly.

So I wanted to come here and say to Gillian I was sorry, to say that I'd made a mistake, but to also say I understood the concerns that she was bringing to me and I had simply misunderstood some of the words that she used.

So I've made my apology. I've come here, it's been a chance to talk to Gillian about her family and about her relatives and about her own history and what she's done. But most of all, it's a chance for me to apologise and say sorry and say sometimes you do make mistakes and you use wrong words and once you've used that word and you've made a mistake you should withdraw it and say profound apologies and that's what I've done.

The BBC explain all

[avfc89]

That woman wasn't a bigot, what a load of rubbish. I've just watched it now.

[PauloBarnesi]

Did I say the Guardian should ignore it Paul? bloody hell this is now getting stupid. The last I heard the Guardian is a part of the media and they despite not sinking to the levels of the Sun etc, are still led by stories that they think the people would like to read. That does not make it right though for a political / election agenda when the main and you could possibly argue the only subject should be policy

Well we wouldn’t be having this discussion if Brown hadn’t pressed self destruct. Its rumoured that under Blair, the mic was always in the hands of the Labour party. Today its Sky. You might say that they have an agenda, but they didn’t make Gordon say it.

But ultimately I think it will make people look at policy, and people will ask what are the parties policies on immigration. One would hope they would make a reasonable judgement on what they read. I really don’t think that Brown has helped his own cause by calling one of his own voters a bigot. And where I ve pointed out for people like Margaret Hodge.

[drat01]

GD: But there's too many people now who aren't vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can't get claim, can't get it.

PM: But they shouldn't be doing that. There's no life on the dole for people any more. If you're unemployed you've got to go back to work. It's six months...

GD: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're... all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?

PM: A million people come from Europe but a million people, British people, have gone into Europe. You do know that there's a lot of British people staying in Europe as well?

OK a woman is in front of you and the conversation goes like above - she talks about claims and then immediately says immigrants and Eastern Europeans.

Instant reaction to that? You can see who she is blaming for claims.

[snowychap]

However the EU opened the floodgates and TBH the UK will sink with the heaving population we have on our shores if we're not careful. What is it now? 60 Million and rising!!

ONS had it at around 61.3 million in mid-2008.

I've been hearing that (sinking) line since I was a teenager, Julie.

If one is concerned with ever increasing economic growth and the increasing burden that will place on the economically active then immigration is going to play a larger and larger part in that.