How sure are you of your belief/non-belief in a god?

[Chindie]

No afterlife. Sadly, it will just go dark and that will be it.

We are not special. We are but an animal with a heightened sese of self, and self importance. We know death awaits us. Our societies mean we see it and we fear it, and thus we comfort ourselves wrapping up some idea that death is not the end with the other claptrap of thing we did not understand. Sadly, it's a lie, it is better to understand that death will come and that will be that, and thus understand that our opportunity at life is incredibly precious, than to think once it's over we have another go.

EDIT - The afterlife thing is somethign that in my own life I've actually found vaguely offensive, at one point in particular it made exceptionally furious. My nan was a big part of my life, both my parents working and her living with us basically meant she raised me and my brother and sister and was the biggest influence on us. Then she died. I remember the vicar/priest/whatever coming and asking that we talk to him about her. I didn't. I remember what he said though.

She's gone to a better place.

It infuriated me. He said it again at the funeral. For a brief second my tears were punctuated with tears of anger. A better place? She was in quite a good place before mate. She lived with her family, she was active and full of life and lived well, she saw her sisters regularly, she was happy. Saying she'd gone to a better place made it feel like we'd treated her like shit. I'd like to think she liked being with her family thank you very much.

It seems trivial but to this day it disgusts me.

[Si.]

No afterlife. Sadly, it will just go dark and that will be it.

We are not special. We are but an animal with a heightened sese of self, and self importance. We know death awaits us. Our societies mean we see it and we fear it, and thus we comfort ourselves wrapping up some idea that death is not the end with the other claptrap of thing we did not understand. Sadly, it's a lie, it is better to understand that death will come and that will be that, and thus understand that our opportunity at life is incredibly precious, than to think once it's over we have another go.

I agree with you Chindie. But I want to disagree so, so much

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

But now moving away from the Idea of a "God" what about an afterlife? Does anybody believe that we all go somewhere when we die? I find it very, very hard to accept everything "just goes dark" & thats it.

During my flirtation with what happens after you die period, i read up on some interesting experiments and theories about memories.

Basically the gist is our memories are genetically inherited by our kids, and our passed down and down etc.

So in a way, we do live on through our children and their children after we die.

It's a bat shit crazy theory but it's a nice thought.

[Chindie]

The only argument that appealed to me for an 'afterlife' is a purely scientific one. I quite like it.

You are your descendants. There is, in a tiny part of you, a man and woman from hundreds, thousands of years ago. It may be tiny, and diluted, but there is a part of them that lives on in you.

And the same will apply to your children. You will have joined them in their future, they will carry something of you for their life, and the lives of all their offspring. You will never totally die in this way, not till humanity joins you in the grave.

It might not have the appeal of heaven but still, at least you can die knowing theres a bit of you still knocking about. Assuming you had kids of course. If you didn't, best get your name in history or write a bloody good book.

[BOF]

She's gone to a better place.

It infuriated me. He said it again at the funeral. For a brief second my tears were punctuated with tears of anger. A better place? She was in quite a good place before mate. She lived with her family, she was active and full of life and lived well, she saw her sisters regularly, she was happy. Saying she'd gone to a better place made it feel like we'd treated her like shit. I'd like to think she liked being with her family thank you very much.

It seems trivial but to this day it disgusts me.

Firstly I agree with your views on afterlife, humans, religion etc. So with that in mind...

You are dealing with people who DO believe in it - probably some of your family too.

Saying she is going to a better place does not mean she was in a bad one.

If you accept that these people think heaven is the best place you could possibly be in, then no matter where you were before, you are going to a better place.

Of course it's all a load of crap, but they believe it and they mean well, so leave them to it, nod, smile and call them mad in your head

[leviramsey]

Yep, thats the psuedo-philosophical crap I'm talking about also known as the TAG argument dealing with logical absolutes. It's apologetics and a more complex form of "ahh but science doesn't know anything!".

If you don't consider the limits of knowledge (e.g. Hume's Fork) than you are just as stupid as the religious folk.

Of course we only give meaning to the reality we perceive - how else are we supposed to measure reality? If we have to consider that we can't percieve a reality that we must also measure to find truths (rendering it unmeasurable) then we might as well just give up investigating anything right now as a species. Truths are relevant to our existence

That's no different than the theist making the argument that there has to be a god otherwise we'd all be evil.

Just because it would be nice if something were true doesn't make it true.

You are Immanuel Kant and I claim my prize.

[Chindie]

Firstly I agree with your views on afterlife, humans, religion etc. So with that in mind...

You are dealing with people who DO believe in it - probably some of your family too.

Saying she is going to a better place does not mean she was in a bad one.

If you accept that these people think heaven is the best place you could possibly be in, then no matter where you were before, you are going to a better place.

Of course it's all a load of crap, but they believe it and they mean well, so leave them to it, nod, smile and call them mad in your head

I know they meant well and so on but still, it disgusts me. I'd actually asked that something along those lines wasn't said.

It's funny really, my family are incredibly irreligious. I've never been to church for anything other than a wedding, funeral, or some ridiculous school thing at Christmas involving shoving a candle in an orange. My family didn't either. We're just 'culturally C of E', celebrate Christmas, do the weddings and funerals in a church out of...well, it being the done thing. I consider myself without religion, my parents shove themselves down on census' as CofE. My brother got marrried in a church and the priest (nuts I might add, nuttier than the usual big beard in the sky brigade) wittered on about being before god and whatever and it was all veyr nice but it struck me (as the priest left the 2 of them stood at the altar while he walked behind them and adressed the assmebled wellwishers) that in my close family anyway, we don't believe a dickybird of this. We went to the church because it 'was done', and because it was nice looking and localish to the bride.

I think this is more or less what religion is to many people today, across the board. I've argued that it has somewhat of an effect on the rise of Islamic terrorism actually before now. It's our culture and identity, the rules we abide by and the way we act. We don't really believe in whats written in the book (hell, we've probably not read it), but its what Mom and Dad did and their parents too and the neighbours as well... And that's why it's hard to kill the damn thing off.

And while the the vast majority of people are going for the culture side of religion, they're giving the nuts ones, the ones that really do believe it by God, and awaiting the rapture or whatever, reason to keep going.

[Sie]

Its gotta be 4 for me.Now, if you went to a Vicar and said that to him he would reply that it was a test of faith. But if God exists surely he would make us all believe in him so he wouldn't need to test our faith? Infact if God exists, he would already know what the outcome of this poll would be.

Indeed. What kind of word removed must the Abrahamic depiction of God be for him to desire belief from humans but rather than simply make us all believe with a snap of his fingers, as a sick joke he chooses tp smites us with "tests of faith" such as massive natural disasters that kill untold amounts of people. Author of morality my arse, he's the antithesis of it.

But now moving away from the Idea of a "God" what about an afterlife? Does anybody believe that we all go somewhere when we die? I find it very, very hard to accept everything "just goes dark" & thats it.

Nope. I attribute human conscienceness or personality to the functioning of the brain. I reason that is also why brain trauma can result in a change of personality in a person. When the brain dies, what we define as our personality and self awareness ceases to exist. I do not consider it separate from our physical being and as such, reason we can not observe our physical death such as seeing everything "just go dark". Things like your life flashing before your eyes, bright light tunnels and out of body experiences are the manifestations of a confused and panicking brain; cognitive deceptions if you will. Some epilepsy suffers experience similar weird mental images before and after a seizure for example.

[leviramsey]

I don't see the relevance to my arguement? I don't believe in God nor am I religious.

I know, I'm merely speaking about the 3rd person, not you specifically. I know you're a non believer like myself.

Who is this mythical third person of whom you speak?

It's merely a diversionary tactic to avoid the argument at hand - a religious person being defeated when arguing God's existence in reality and then going on the backfoot, jumping to God's existence outside of time/space/reality to try and completely dismiss the reach of human science. It's moving the goalposts to protect the God hypothesis.

So we have a universal quantification whose author goes on the backfoot within 45 minutes...

Nothing like moving the goalposts, eh?

[Sie]

Like I said Levi, I'm not about to get drawn into a debate about TAG, especially when you're doing nothing more than misinterpreting what it is that I've said to make your points.

Oh and thanks for calling me stupid. I'll be sure to offer you the same courtesy in the future.

[leviramsey]

I didn't necessarily call you stupid.

Where am I misinterpreting?

[ThunderPower_14]

I'm an atheist, but it hardly matters.

I believe what I believe based on critical thinking about evidence I have in front of me. If that evidence were to shift a significant amount, i'd be stupid not to change my belief.

If several absolute miracles happened in front of me, someone I know prayed for something impossible and got it etc etc etc, I might question my sanity just a little but i'd surely have to change my mind.

Likewise, if I were Christian, then some kind of undisputable historical evidence was uncovered that proved the bible was completely false and that Jesus never existed, how could I possibly continue to believe what I believe.

[Gringo]

Indeed evolution happens just by us having children....

Even gingers?

[Jon]

Who is this mythical third person of whom you speak?

[limpid]

So, this teapot religion...

I'm going to persuade the educated elite to browbeat the uneducated masses into believing in the teapot in order that there death will be better than their terrible lives. I'll make sure to include something about indoctrinating theur kids early on. I reckon I can build in a taxation system too.

Why hasn't anyone though tof this before?

[Sie]

So, this teapot religion...

I'm going to persuade the educated elite to browbeat the uneducated masses into believing in the teapot in order that there death will be better than their terrible lives. I'll make sure to include something about indoctrinating theur kids early on. I reckon I can build in a taxation system too.

Why hasn't anyone though tof this before?

"Now there's an idea..."

[wiganvillain]

Indeed evolution happens just by us having children....

Even gingers?

Regrettably ------------ Yes

[Alpaywasawesome]

To be completely honest.

I don't believe in a God or any life after death thing.

But I'm really enamored by the concept of reincarnation. Living again and again and again in a myriad of different lives, in different circumstances.

The ways to experience this world and life in general is so vast, I did wish at times that reincarnation is real.

I would then get a chance to live again and again.

It's just a fantasy, but it is a reason for me to root for religion - at least those with reincarnation.

[cheltenham_villa]

ill chuck my two pence in. I believe in god, dont go to church, not particularly interested in religion or debating it but i know that in times of trouble/distress that ive resorted to asking god for help. Just something i do, maybe its a comfort thing, i dont know. One thing i would say is that ive had a pretty decent life and all the things ive prayed about have worked out ok for me....make of that what you will. On this basis i dont believe that any new evidence either way would change my beliefs.

[Risso]

ill chuck my two pence in. I believe in god, dont go to church, not particularly interested in religion or debating it but i know that in times of trouble/distress that ive resorted to asking god for help. Just something i do, maybe its a comfort thing, i dont know. One thing i would say is that ive had a pretty decent life and all the things ive prayed about have worked out ok for me....make of that what you will. On this basis i dont believe that any new evidence either way would change my beliefs.

Of all the stupid ideas that religion is responsible for, praying is surely the msot stupid of all. Do you seriously believe that an omnipotent being decides on a seemingly random basis whether to intervene in the trivialities of human existence? So if he answers your prayer for a new job or to get well, why would he ignore those of people dying in Haiti or wherever? Seriously, think about it for a while.