How sure are you of your belief/non-belief in a god?

[leviramsey]

Some guy named Levi Ramsey"]

I believe that there is a transcending reality present in the very heart of life. I name this reality God.

I believe that this reality has a bias toward life and wholeness and that its presence is experienced as that which calls us beyond all our fearful and fragile human limits.

I believe that this reality can be found in all that is but that it reaches self-consciousness and the capability of being named, communed with, and recognized only in human life. Any being that can name, commune with, or recognize this reality is by definition human.

I believe that heaven, the domain in which this reality has traditionally been domiciled, is not a place but a symbol for the limitlessness of Being itself.

I believe that this realm of heaven is entered when the barriers that seem to bind human life into something less than that for which it is capable are set aside.

I believe in Jesus, called Messiah or Christ.

I believe that in his life this transcendent reality was revealed so completely that it caused people to refer to him as the son of God, even God's only son. The intensity of God burned so brightly in him that I look at his life and say, "In you I see the meaning of God, so for me, you are both Lord and Christ."

I believe that Jesus was a God presence, a powerful experience of the reality undergirding us all at the very depths of life. That is why the earliest Christians interpreted this Christ in the language of theism. That was the only language in which they knew how to speak of God.

Since their assumption was that Jesus was God in a human form, they attributed to him the ability to do whatever God was able to do. He could create out of nothing, so they wrote that he fed the multitude with five loaves. He could command the forces of nature to obey him, and so a storm was stilled. He had power over supposed demonic forces, and so he exorcised supposed demons. He could teach with divine authority, and so it was said that he did not teach like the scribes. Since God's presence on Earth was a sign that God's realm was being re-established, they attributed to Jesus the signs of the kingdom. So it was that ancient people touched by this Jesus described his life in terms of the ancient expectations of what would mark the coming of God and God's Kingdom, in various religious traditions that already existed (a virgin birth, a member of the House of David, for example). Their narratives depicting the signs of God were attached to the remembered life of Jesus.

When this life came to its violent conclusion, it was said of him that this was but a prelude to the full establishment of God's kingdom. So his death on the cross was portrayed as his living out the final conflict between good and evil that would be fought at the Battle of Armageddon. There Good was snuffed out by the evil of humanity. The forces of evil were destined to prevail momentarily, so after the battle was over, it was said in the sacred sources that darkness must reign over the earth for [parts of] three whole days. Then, at dawn on the third day, proclaimed these Jewish legends, the heavens would open and the Kingdom of God would emerge anew. The power of death and evil would be broken forever. That day on which God's kingdom dawned would be called the first day of new creation.

So it was that these traditions were also wrapped around the Jesus story, and it was said that when he died, darkness covered the whole earth. Then, at the crack of dawn on the third day, the tomb of death was opened and the risen Christ came forth, and that day was called the first day of the new creation and was observed on the first day of every week. The Kingdom of God had dawned in Jesus, or at least a subset of the fruits of that Kingdom were experienced. The reality being proclaimed was that the being of God could not be terminated and that Jesus, in a bit of figurative language, brought this God to us. So it was said of him that Jesus triumphed over death, and that story was told in terms of ancient Jewish symbols.

All of this was the interpretative framework in which the God experience in Jesus came to be understood. It was an interpretation based on the theistic concepts of God present in that era of human history. The language employed was that of a premodern, nonscientific world. There was no other alternative for processing the God experience in the first century of this common era. That interpretative language was then incorporated into creeds, liturgies, prayers, and theological concepts. It is this language that has become nonsensical. The frame of reference that produced those understandings of reality has disintegrated. The words, the concepts, and the theological reasoning by which they interpreted their experiences have become meaningless and empty. To reject that interpretative language is and was inevitable. But to reject it is not to reject the experiences that prompted it. So I seek to achieve this separation, to discern the glimpse of God in Jesus and to talk about it outside the theistic language of the past.

Jesus was said to have called the egotistical Peter into wholeness; a corrupt tax collector, Levi Matthew, into generosity; the mysterious Mary Magdalene into the apostleship of sharing in the experience of the resurrection; the doubting Thomas into a life of faith; the angry John into being the apostle of love. It was as if the being of Jesus was limitless. The more of his being he gave away, the more he had to give. So the endless depths of Being, the being of God appeared to be within him.

The limits that defined human life also fell before him. At the end of his life, even the barrier dividing the finite from the infinite seemed to disappear. Death is the name of the ultimate symbol of human limitation. The Ground of Being entered the tomb and emerged with alleluias ringing, for death was conquered. The final limit on human life had been broken.

Yet this Jesus had his roots in human history, a fact that was validated by linking his death to a specific when Judea was governed by a specific procurator and the Temple of Jerusalem was ruled by a specific high priest. His full humanity was affirmed in that he died. Christian theology was born to make sense of his death. His access to God was asserted when it was said that he ascended into heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit to abide with his followers forever. The universality of this spirit was symbolized when the story recounted how this Spirit fell upon Jews and Gentiles, men and women.

The Spirit became a sign of the intrinsic unity of all human life, creating a community beyond every human difference. The defining marks of the past -- tribe, language, race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. -- faded. Inevitably, so will the most difficult and painful barrier of all aspects of human behavior, those barriers erected by the religious convictions of human beings. For even the most cursory reading of human history will reveal that the religious systems of human beings, more often than not, have set the members of our human family against each other in a fratricidal, killing struggle. Along with the barriers of religion will fall the related barriers of economic and political differences.

So it needs to be said that the God presence of this Jesus (as with the God presence, to name three others of Mohammed, Buddha, and Science) will lead us ultimately beyond every religious definition. It will lead beyond Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and Science themselves. It is essential for our human development to destroy the idolatrous convictions that identify the messenger of God with God. The Ground of Being will eventually be worshipped apart from any system of religious thought.

I believe in that gift of the Spirit who was called the "giver of life." Once, we located God only externally and called this God the Father Almighty. Next, we located this God in Jesus and called him the Son Incarnate. Now we locate this God in every human and we call this God the Holy Spirit. I believe that this Spirit inevitably creates a community of faith that will come, in time, to open this world to God as the very Ground of Life and Being. We call that community "one" because the source of life is one. We call it "holy" because the holy God is seen through it. We call it "catholic" because it is universal and must embrace all the types of faith, including that described as no faith. We call it "apostolic" because it was recognized as present in Jesus and it flowed to us through the witness of his apostles and disciples. That is the point of entry. It is not, will not be, and cannot be a conclusion.

But we also name it as inclusive even because nothing can separate us from the Ground of Being or from those whose lives share in the Being of God. Not even the name of Jesus can do that.

I believe, therefore, that being in touch with the Ground of Being creates the universal communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the reality of resurrection, and the doorway into everlasting life. Those are not the words I would choose now to describe the reality to which they point, but once they have been freed from idolatrous literalism, they will do. The experience of God as the Ground of Being has a way of breaking open every human word and making it usable again. Human language is so inadequate. All it can do is describe human experience, but it is God that transcends human experience. Human experience can never be exhausted by language. Langauge can never do more than point to what it seeks to describe. It does not, cannot, and never will capture truth. Religion is therefore not what it has been traditionally thought of. It is not a system of belief. It is not a catalogue of revealed truth. It is not an activity designed for controlling behavior, for rewarding "virtue" or punishing "vice". Religion is a human attempt to process (possibly in a distributed manner) the God experience, which breaks forth from our own depths and wells up constantly within us. We must lay down, therefore, the primitive claims which make up most of our religious traditions. Not one of them is drawn from supernatural revelations. Not one of them is inerrant or infallible. None of them represents the only way to God. None of them can be used to coerce or compel belief. All evangelical and missionary activities designed to convert the heathen are base born. They are the expressions of human feelings of superiority and hostility toward those who are different. The only mission that the Church of the Future could possibly have is to open people to the recognition that the base of their very being is holy and that when they are in touch with the Ground of Being, they can share in God's creation by giving life, love, and being to others. That is the task of all who claim to be God bearers. The Christians of the world are not here to build institutions, to convert other people, or even to claim that they can speak for God. Those aspects of Christian heritage must be sacrificed as the premodern misunderstandings of our primitive history.

What must be done is to free ourselves from the idolatrous limits of the religions of the world. THe gods of those systems must also die. The god of church, temple, synagogue, and mosque must be made no more. The magical, personalistic, manipulative, and vindictive power of those deities has been used historically not to enhance life but to bless the status quo, to increase the power of priests and that of the ruling classes.

The God who is the Ground of Being cannot be owned, cannot be a slave. God is a universal presence undergirding all life. God does not bless or curse individuals or groups of people. God calls us to live our lives to the fullest potential. God, the God of Love, calls us to love wastefully. God calls us to have the courage to Be, the courage to be ourselves. When we live, love, and have the courage to be, we are worshipping, we are expanding our humanity, and we are breaking through barriers.

That is the call of the future God. It is the God to whom all religious institutions must point. That will be the basis of my faith in the postmodern world.

Those who think that Christianity still consists of a supernatural being who periodically invades the world, impregnates virgins, raises the dead, and causes people to rise to heaven have (and will) find me a threat to their faith. Those who believe that there is no God in any way shape or form will find me a threat to their tenuous system of [dis]belief. Those who believe that creeds are literally true, that any book is inerrant, or that leaders are infallible will find me a threat to their presuppositions. Those who cannot think of God independently from theism will call me (depending on what they call themselves) an atheist or a theist. Those who have made their only understanding of truth to be the consensus of the past will call me a heretic, or a religious nutjob.

But those understandings are doomed to die, no matter how frantically people seek to defend it. It will not survive. It will cease to compelling. I write for those for whom they have died. I write to call all people into new possibilities. If one person heeds this call, then my purpose has been fulfilled.

Is this adequate for a new world? I would be surprised if it were judged to be so, for even I would not judge it to be so. This is merely the best I can come up with at this time. I suspect that I am not too radical, as many will claim, but, rather, not radical enough.

I am first, last, and forever a believer. I define myself as a believer in exile. I live and worship, have lived and worshipped, and will continue to live and worship as a believer. At some point, I expect to enter more deeply into the reality of God than I have ever been before.

Therefore, I am at peace.

Shalom, and may you be at peace as well.

[Brumerican]

It would have been easier to say "I believe in a non-traditional God" but that was an interesting read Levi.^^^^^

[B-dub]

It's funny when someone says that they don't believe in god, the typical Jesus freak retort is "Oh, you're really angry at God aren't you? You must've had some bad experience when you were a kid and now you're bitter about it."

That's like saying you don't believe in the tooth fairy because you only got 50 cents under your pillow when you were a kid when you really wanted a dollar; or you stopped believing in Santa Claus, not because of your own common sense, but because the low quality of the gifts you received at Christmas really pissed you off.

[Vojskovoda]

This whole 'proving God' thing is getting tedious... Jesus is God's son, isn't that enough evidence? :winkhold: it's what you believe in; I personally look at my relationship with God like this and this whole 'proving-disproving' thing: If I am correct about God, then I have a wonderful future to look forward to, but you do not. If you are correct, then I will not be any worse off than you in the future. Based on these two possible outcomes for my future, I choose to believe in God and learn what I must do in order to inherit eternal life. Makes good sense to me. I'm better off really because I've got nothing to lose either way and I'm at an advantage of being with God. If you could have anyone on your side I'd pick God :winkold:

That's my outlook on it anyway... people shouldn't be so bothered about other people if they believe in God... why waste your time arguing about something you don't think exists? It's completely pointless and I never understand why non-believers waste so much time arguing about it... do you think you're choosing Christianity as an easy target (2.5 billion Christians in the world...)? I wonder why you never attack Islam about their 'beliefs'...

[YLN]

That's my outlook on it anyway... people shouldn't be so bothered about other people if they believe in God... why waste your time arguing about something you don't think exists? It's completely pointless and I never understand why non-believers waste so much time arguing about it... do you think you're choosing Christianity as an easy target (2.5 billion Christians in the world...)? I wonder why you never attack Islam about their 'beliefs'...

They're pretty much the same beliefs in the grand scheme of things. What are you writing Bernard. Are you getting involved in this debate? No you aren't. You'd better not press send. Everyone here is just talking and nothing is being said. It's a religious debate. You have no part to play as you have concluded that it is too much for you to understand so you're just going to wing it. I'm going along with you on that, but don't drag us into this. It's beneath us. You're going to press send aren't you?

[Brumerican]

This whole 'proving God' thing is getting tedious...

Jesus is God's son, isn't that enough evidence? :winkhold: it's what you believe in; I personally look at my relationship with God like this and this whole 'proving-disproving' thing: If I am correct about God, then I have a wonderful future to look forward to, but you do not. If you are correct, then I will not be any worse off than you in the future. Based on these two possible outcomes for my future, I choose to believe in God and learn what I must do in order to inherit eternal life. Makes good sense to me. I'm better off really because I've got nothing to lose either way and I'm at an advantage of being with God. If you could have anyone on your side I'd pick God :winkold:

That's my outlook on it anyway... people shouldn't be so bothered about other people if they believe in God... why waste your time arguing about something you don't think exists? It's completely pointless and I never understand why non-believers waste so much time arguing about it... do you think you're choosing Christianity as an easy target (2.5 billion Christians in the world...)? I wonder why you never attack Islam about their 'beliefs'...

1. An omniscient God will know that you have ulterior motives for your beliefs. (Pascals wager...I suggest you look it up sharpish)) Major fail there young christian....Also what if you are worshipping the wrong God thus angering the real God ? I doubt you ever really consider this do you?

2.If you feel it is tedious discussing this topic then dont post on it! No one is forcing you to get involved, yet here you are again with your "poor persecuted christian" patter. Man up , have some balls, do some research and quit your crying please, because that really is tedious.

3.

Jesus is God's son, isn't that enough evidence?

This is a joke right? I will assume it is because that cannot be a serious statement.

4.

If I am correct about God, then I have a wonderful future to look forward to, but you do not.

What a disgusting attitude to have, especially for a christian. "I will be fine...you lot are in the shit" Where is the empathy? the love ? The compassion ? All qualities of The biblical character Jesus yet you rarely show any of these. How do you live with your contradictory beliefs?

5.

People shouldn't be so bothered about other people if they believe in God... why waste your time arguing about something you don't think exists? It's completely pointless and I never understand why non-believers waste so much time arguing about it...

This says a lot about how you see the world more than anything. If people have ridiculous beliefs that may effect the rest of us then of course we should try reasoning with them. Do you suggest we just give up and let you guys off the hook. ? I know you would love a hassle free life where religious views are beyond reproach but fortunately those days are gone.

The only person I ever see getting "bothered" about this topic is the likes of yourself. As I said before, if you don't want to debate/talk about this then no one is making you.

6

do you think you're choosing Christianity as an easy target (2.5 billion Christians in the world...)? I wonder why you never attack Islam about their 'beliefs'...

Why use the word attack ? There you go again with your persecution complex. No one is "attacking" christianity here!. There is a big difference in pointing out flaws/contradictions/illogical reasoning in someones belief and "attacking" it. If you had any real convictions in your arguments for belief then I doubt you would cry foul so regularly but instead of presenting your case in a clear logical fashion, you usually spout some "Jesus is awesome" line then cry off with a "stop picking on us" mantra.

If there are any Muslim VTers here , I am more than willing to point out the flaws/contradiction/ illogical reasoning in your belief system as well. And Hindus, Scientologists, Jewish etc etc.

"One must respect a man's religious beliefs, but only insofar as one respects his belief that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart"

[P3te]

1. An omniscient God

if such a thing exists it means that free will does not, which means that you have no control over anything you do because its all been decided already, which means that this omniscient god made it that way, which means that you didnt have a choice whether to believe in him or not, which means that he made believers believe and disbelievers disbelieve, which means that the holy books (whichever one, take your pick) are riddled with lies and trying to make people convert/believe is fruitless

also raises the wonderful question of whether this omniscient god can create a rock so heavy that he cannot pick up

[Brumerican]

1. An omniscient God

if such a thing exists it means that free will does not, which means that you have no control over anything you do because its all been decided already, which means that this omniscient god made it that way, which means that you didnt have a choice whether to believe in him or not, which means that he made believers believe and disbelievers disbelieve, which means that the holy books (whichever one, take your pick) are riddled with lies and trying to make people convert/believe is fruitless

also raises the wonderful question of whether this omniscient god can create a rock so heavy that he cannot pick up

Exactly. An Omniscient God is logically contradictory. Also I think you mean omnipotent and not omniscient for the popular, heavy rock question.

[P3te]

Exactly. An Omniscient God is logically contradictory. Also I think you mean omnipotent and not omniscient for the popular, heavy rock question.

aye thats true, tho hes also classed as omnipotent anyway [/digging up]

[Brumerican]

I think this sums up the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent deity.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?”

Epicurus

[Vojskovoda]

Ever heard the phrase "Live and let live"? Why are non-believers so obsessed about getting themselves worked up over something they do not believe in? That makes no sense and you know it. Who's bothering you... how it is it effecting you... are you doing to go on a dawkins rant saying non-believers are oppressed haha. My problem with non-believers is how they swagger around genuienly thinking they're 'right' and that anyone who is Religious is 'uneducated' or wrong etc... Do you know how disrespectful, ignorant and arrogant that is? I don't like to lump everyone into one group, but hardcore non-believers have a horrible and disrespectful attitude towards people believing in God taking some sort of sad pride in bashing and abusive towards religion... how often do you see Religious people doing the same to non-believers? Never, live and let live my friend... as you say no-one is making you do anything.

And I know this message-board seems to be a breeding ground for the 'hardcore non-believers' because we know that in reality it's a bit different... everyone who I know Religious or non-Religious does thinking there is a supreme being looking over us and I've honestly never come across a 'hardcore non-believer' because in reality there's only a few who like to think they're 'intelligent, amazing etc...'; it's funny how most non-believers are behind their keyboard expressing their views rather than out in public, but hey, I guess all the 'hardcore non-believers' on this forum still get married in Churches, get buried in Churches, get their kids Christened, celebrate the birth of Christ (Christmas) and what not... so much for sticking by your 'beliefs' of being an atheist... I have my beliefs and stick to them firmly.

So yeah... I'm tired, it's nearly 6am I feel what I've just wrote is probably pointless because peeps will be quoting me when I won't be there to answer but all I can say is "Lets agree to disagree" because we're just going to go round and round in circles getting into another one of these arguments which I've been in too many on here when I probably shouldn't have.

God bless and peace.

[P3te]

Who's bothering you... how it is it effecting you...

from an irish point of view the fact that the catholic church owns and runs 99% of state schools in the country. that affects me, and its a discrace for so called "secular" state. then theres the fact that the catholic church has so much say in politics in ireland, again a disgrace for a "secular" state.

so yeah, it affects me personally

[P3te]

I guess all the 'hardcore non-believers' on this forum still get married in Churches, get buried in Churches, get their kids Christened, celebrate the birth of Christ (Christmas) and what not... so much for sticking by your 'beliefs' of being an atheist...

i left the catholic church in august. i cannot get married in a church nor be buried in a catholic graveyard because of it

i point blank refuse to indocrtinate any children i may have into any religion, theyre free to make up their own minds when they are adults, and can join whatever religion they like at that point - but i sure as feck wont sign them up for something before they can speak, let alone understand it

the birth of christ didnt actually take place on december 25th (if at all), it happened at some stage in spring. the event of christmas took its date of december 25th from pagan holidays celebrated around that time - and even now they have pushed away from being a catholic/religions thing into a commercial holiday focussed on family and giving gifts. you might celebrate it as the birth of christ, others celebrate it as a time to come together with their loved ones

[Brumerican]

Ever heard the phrase "Live and let live"? Why are non-believers so obsessed about getting themselves worked up over something they do not believe in? That makes no sense and you know it. Who's bothering you... how it is it effecting you... are you doing to go on a dawkins rant saying non-believers are oppressed haha. My problem with non-believers is how they swagger around genuienly thinking they're 'right' and that anyone who is Religious is 'uneducated' or wrong etc... Do you know how disrespectful, ignorant and arrogant that is? I don't like to lump everyone into one group, but hardcore non-believers have a horrible and disrespectful attitude towards people believing in God taking some sort of sad pride in bashing and abusive towards religion... how often do you see Religious people doing the same to non-believers? Never, live and let live my friend... as you say no-one is making you do anything.

And I know this message-board seems to be a breeding ground for the 'hardcore non-believers' because we know that in reality it's a bit different... everyone who I know Religious or non-Religious does thinking there is a supreme being looking over us and I've honestly never come across a 'hardcore non-believer' because in reality there's only a few who like to think they're 'intelligent, amazing etc...'; it's funny how most non-believers are behind their keyboard expressing their views rather than out in public, but hey, I guess all the 'hardcore non-believers' on this forum still get married in Churches, get buried in Churches, get their kids Christened, celebrate the birth of Christ (Christmas) and what not... so much for sticking by your 'beliefs' of being an atheist... I have my beliefs and stick to them firmly.

So yeah... I'm tired, it's nearly 6am I feel what I've just wrote is probably pointless because peeps will be quoting me when I won't be there to answer but all I can say is "Lets agree to disagree" because we're just going to go round and round in circles getting into another one of these arguments which I've been in too many on here when I probably shouldn't have.

God bless and peace.

Do you need a tissue? sob sob persecution sob sob.

Intelligence and atheism are linked.It is no coincidence that over 90% of the worlds top scientists express no religious beliefs. One of the reasons that religion is so powerful is the gullibilty of the feeble minded.

"Religion is considered by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful" Seneca

You have not contributed one single clear argument for your beliefs. You just persist with the persecution complex, the ad hominem attacks on people of higher intelligence and the constant need to to try and dismiss the relevance of an atheist discussing this subject subject. If you can't see why a non believer would want to talk about religion considering how the world is right now then you really need some help.

My problem with non-believers is how they swagger around genuienly thinking they're 'right' and that anyone who is Religious is 'uneducated' or wrong etc... Do you know how disrespectful, ignorant and arrogant that is?

Swagger around......??? Whoah there.!! You just said you have never actually met non believer in real life and that they are all hiding behind there keyboards! So how on earth do you know how they move around? You have no self awareness at all do you ? Your views are constantly hypocritical and/or contradictory yet you never even acknowledge them!!!Seriously dude, how do you look yourself in the mirror ?

it's funny how most non-believers are behind their keyboard expressing their views rather than out in public, but hey, I guess all the 'hardcore non-believers' on this forum still get married in Churches, get buried in Churches, get their kids Christened, celebrate the birth of Christ (Christmas) and what not... so much for sticking by your 'beliefs' of being an atheist... I have my beliefs and stick to them firmly.

I express my "non belief" all the time in public. I talk about it in the real world far more than I do online and I live in the south of the USA ! I am in the trenches pal, unlike you who has claimed to live in an infidel free zone.

Where is your evidence that backs up your statement that most non believers still take advantage of religious traditions? Christmas was originally a pagan festival by the way that was hijacked by christianity and had its Jesus theme forced upon it. It is amazing how little you actually know about something that you profess so much confidence in! Atheism is not a belief either so we have no "beliefs" to "stick to" so that part of your spiel made no sense either (at least it's consistent with the other nonsensical stuff)

How can you say you don't like the condescending nature of Atheists and that you hate how they always say believers are uneducated or less intelligent , because with nearly every thing you say you are actually adding weight to the case you are protesting!!! Every time you say something hypocritical, contradictory or illogical you are lending weight to the very thing that you are against. If you dont want those "arrogant" atheists to call you unintelligent, then stop saying unintelligent things! Honestly , Ive lost count of how many times I have said this to you but you really have no self awareness filter and it's frightening.

Its baffling to me how someone who seems so confident in his views can know so little about his own beliefs. Your theological knowledge is extremely poor, even on the basics. You have a very poor grasp of what atheism actually means yet you will happily twist the meaning to suit your backward reasoning..ie..Your constant reference to atheist "beliefs" ......ATHEISTS DON'T HAVE BELIEFS FFS......It is a NON BELIEF. There is one thing that connects all atheists and that is that they DO NOT BELIEVE IN GODS.....That's it!!!! Nothing more!!! No Dogma! No weekly meetings.! No belief system. Atheists do not say "there is no God". They just don't see a reason to believe there is. Thats it!

Oh and yet again you come out with the live and let live blah blah lets get along blah blah...No. No. No. The days of just accepting whatever religion tells you are long gone. You think Religion is completely harmless for some reason and christianity is the least harmful of all. Have you ever read a history book ? Do you read the news ? Do you actually know anything about how religion affects other areas ? eg. Abortion, contraception, stem cell research, gay marriage, divorce, freedom of speech, womens rights, sexual oppression, child abuse.? No of course you clearly don't or you are hiding the fact very well.

So please just drop the victim act please. ( I find it hilarious that you mentioned Dawkins talking about atheism oppression, yet you are the biggest cry baby of all when it comes to questioning religion) Another fine example of having zero self awareness and being able to contradict yourself without even noticing.

Finally, please stop the whole "Why are we even discussing this again" rhetoric. No one is making you post in this thread and it just reeks of cowardice to be honest. If you don't know what you are talking about then don't talk about it! Go and read up on religion and come back when you have something of interest to say.

God bless and peace.

Yeah cause God is a peaceful guy huh! Didn't he drown EVERY man woman and child on earth once, except a handful of incestuous zoologists?

[regular_john]

Ever heard the phrase "Live and let live"? Why are non-believers so obsessed about getting themselves worked up over something they do not believe in? That makes no sense and you know it. Who's bothering you... how it is it effecting you... are you doing to go on a dawkins rant saying non-believers are oppressed haha. My problem with non-believers is how they swagger around genuienly thinking they're 'right' and that anyone who is Religious is 'uneducated' or wrong etc... Do you know how disrespectful, ignorant and arrogant that is? I don't like to lump everyone into one group, but hardcore non-believers have a horrible and disrespectful attitude towards people believing in God taking some sort of sad pride in bashing and abusive towards religion... how often do you see Religious people doing the same to non-believers? Never, live and let live my friend... as you say no-one is making you do anything.

And I know this message-board seems to be a breeding ground for the 'hardcore non-believers' because we know that in reality it's a bit different... everyone who I know Religious or non-Religious does thinking there is a supreme being looking over us and I've honestly never come across a 'hardcore non-believer' because in reality there's only a few who like to think they're 'intelligent, amazing etc...'; it's funny how most non-believers are behind their keyboard expressing their views rather than out in public, but hey, I guess all the 'hardcore non-believers' on this forum still get married in Churches, get buried in Churches, get their kids Christened, celebrate the birth of Christ (Christmas) and what not... so much for sticking by your 'beliefs' of being an atheist... I have my beliefs and stick to them firmly.

So yeah... I'm tired, it's nearly 6am I feel what I've just wrote is probably pointless because peeps will be quoting me when I won't be there to answer but all I can say is "Lets agree to disagree" because we're just going to go round and round in circles getting into another one of these arguments which I've been in too many on here when I probably shouldn't have.

God bless and peace.

This is absolute madness. Have you got any understanding of history whatsoever? It is precisely because believers have never 'live and let live' that they can't expect the same treatment in return. Nobody was letting anybody 'live and let live' during 9/11. Nobody was letting anybody 'live and let live' during the Rwandan genocides. The catholics aren't letting anybody 'live and let live' when they preach the ridiculous doctrine that condoms worsen the spread of AIDs.

For centuries, believers have forced their ridiculous, unfounded and wholly illogical beliefs on others. Millions of people have died, and probably will die in the future, because of the actions of religious nuts. Every aspect of life is impeded by religion. Scientific advance was hindered for over a thousand years during the christian dark ages, and even today that vast majority of resistance to scientific advance comes from uneducated religious zealots.

Religion should be criticised and fought on all fronts, it's the only way we can finally rid ourselves of prehistoric superstition and move on as a species.

[Stevo985]

On your point though Ben, if God story was created now and there had previously had been no story of God, noone would believe it in today's world. I reckon if people were told a chimp run the earth and created it whenever the stories of God were told and were drilled into them, they'd believe it and it'd still be around today.

Well yes you're right.

But the point is the story of God, if that's what you want to call it, wasn't made up today. Today, it is a theory supported by millions and millions of people. I agree that the number of people believing it has no impact on the valdity of the claim. All I'm saying is that its understandable for a human being who has no evidence either way to think that amount of people might be onto something, but ultimately they want to reserve judgement until they see some evidence (which will be a long wait!)

[Alpaywasawesome]

There was an episode of the Big Debate about religion in British schools that I think some of you on here will find interesting.

Ahhh. Here it is on the ever-reliable youtube.

Part 1:

[chrisp65]

The part from P3te about religious doctrines running part of the state is particularly interesting.

In my home town there is a whole debate on the local Roman Catholic school. They don’t currently have their own sixth form, so traditionally the pupils have got to that age and been bussed into Cardiff. The local council has always funded this. Tighter times mean the council have told the RC’s they are still welcome to travel 15 miles passed some perfectly good schools to get to one that supports their ideology, but from now on they will be paying full whack for the transport. Sounds to me like a good compromise. For me personally, I don’t want to pay tax that funds someone else’s religious schooling. State and organised religion need to be completely separated.

After all this, I’m still happy to believe in God. Though I have to admit I haven’t read and researched all of the big books, from what I’ve seen many share common stories and should be used more as a guide than as a definitive list of do’s and don’ts. I don’t believe in the Father Christmas god, chair, cloud, white robe and impressive beard. I also don’t believe in the funky new American liberal god (Morgan Freeman). It’s patently obviously possible to get through life without a belief in the divine, the other worldly. Not just get through life, but contribute greatly to the greater good. You can discover a wonder drug or contribute to philosophy or philanthropy without kneeling to any god. Good and god are not mutually inclusive or exclusive.

But personally I do still believe in the big divine force for good. I want my kids to learn the basics of western Christian thoughts and principles, you know, the nice modern liberal slanted bits. I believe it’s a good starting point in life. Saying that, I've ended up with one kid christened and one not. I'm fairly confident this half cocked starting point will not influence their eternal place in the universe, that's for them to determine. I want them learning to critique, to think for themselves and not just believe that the vicar always knows right from wrong, that the Church has millions of pounds locked up in land deals in New York for the greater good or that women have a fixed place in society and so on. I also want them to understand and embrace science, but again without blind faith in what scientists tell us about lard being good in the diet, space exploration being essential and cars with batteries being the future. This doesn’t make me a better person than others, doesn’t buy me any insurance. It works for me, I'm sure in my belief, to answer the original question, that’s the top middle and bottom of it I suppose.

[Pelle]

Some threads grows faster than others.

4 for me, btw.

[DanishVillan]

4

Will change when Odin and Thor rises.

Valhal here I come!