What are your views on animal testing?

[TheDon]

Should only people who are on the organ donation register be eligible for transplants as well?

If you don't believe in giving an organ, you shouldn't believe in receiving one either, simple logic.

Most people that aren't on the organ donor register aren't on there because they lack the effort to register, not because they disagree with the process of organ donation.

If you've made the conciousness decision that being an organ donor is wrong then no, IMO you shouldn't be a recipient of a donor organ.

[Gringo]

Why is it a case of them deciding it's wrong. What if it's a case of them deciding they don't want their body cut up post mortis, don't like the ideas of their eyes being removed etc? They don't think it's wrong - would just rather be a taker than a giver. Should they be eligible?

[briggaman]

Survival of the fittest.

Whilst I don't like any creature being hurt, if needs must then I am fully behind animals being used for testing products (both drugs and cosmetics if need be).

In both cases humans could die if they were used for testing, or have serious side effects. I would rather risk the life of an animal than a human. That may sound cruel, yet the same could be said for eating meat. I eat meat and understand that animals are killed in order for my stomach to be filled.

Sure, I am against needless testing. However, who decides what is needless? Perhaps the likes of shampoo and such, yet how else can they be tested? I certainly wouldn't want a human going blind from the testing of shampoo, or some similar case scenario.

Obviously it would be much better if animals weren't required for testing things on and there was another method to do so. Being that there aren't really many alternatives (other than testing on humans) that I know of, I'm not against testing on animals.

It may sound cruel and heartless, yet I just feel that human life is more important than that of an animal. I'm sure if we could talk to an animal then they would feel the opposite way (where's Dr. Dolittle when you need him?!).

All species look after their own and as mentioned above, it's the survival of the fittest. It has been this way throughout time and will continue to be so....

[TheDon]

Nope.

If you don't want your body cut up post mortis, then surely you should be equally as against it happening pre mortis too! Afterall, if the argument is that you want to be buried whole, then surely that's exactly how you should be buried, not with bits of someone else in there too. If they aren't opposed to being buried with bits of other people then surely they could come to some arrangement where they get the old crappy failing organ from the non-dead person and can chuck that in the grave with you as well!

[Rodders]

agreed. To hold strong views on a subject like this you should at least be consistent whichever side you're on. If not you're a damned hypocrite ( ie if you're a taker not a giver ) and presumably a coward who's decided they actually would like to live.

[kurtsimonw]

I do value peoples lives but I believe some (murderers, rapists) should be valued differently.

Exactly.

One big difference between us and the animal World is that we do kill for our needs. I have no problem eating meat as it's a source of food, it's how we survive, it's necessary. Animals will kill for fun, my cat bought me back birds and stuff all the time, he didn't eat them, he killed for fun.

When somebody kills another human, well, that's hardly human, that's animalistic. You're locked up in a cage like an animal and shouldn't really complain if you're treated like one, afterall, you decided to act like one in the first place. I'm personally not entirely against using drugs on animals, even though I don't think there's that much use going to come from it seeing how different they are from humans, but I'm amazed at the amount of people on here who also see testing cosmetics on murderers as being 'Nazi like'.

It's OT and am not really looking for a reply to it, but given some of the things posted in this thread, it'd be very interesting to hear how some people would deal with these type of criminals.

[paddy]

It's OT and am not really looking for a reply to it, but given some of the things posted in this thread, it'd be very interesting to hear how some people would deal with these type of criminals.

Yeah I'm interested in that too, might be worth starting another thread about it. Personally I'd lock them away, not experiment on them or kill them, but a life sentence would mean just that. You spend hte rest of your life in prison.

[TheDon]

Would anyone say that the worst category of offenders should be slaughtered for their organs?

I find it interesting how many people think we should test on them, but not many people would say they should be culled for something that would directly lead to the survival of people, as opposed to testing which may indirectly lead to it.

[Brumerican]

As long as the animals are given a sufficient revision period then I think it is ok.

[Wainy316]

Would anyone say that the worst category of offenders should be slaughtered for their organs?

Would you want the heart of a killer?

[mjmooney]

Would anyone say that the worst category of offenders should be slaughtered for their organs?

Would you want the heart of a killer?

You don't really believe that the personality resides in the heart do you?

It's just a blood pump. I'd take it if it kept me alive.

[jonno_2004]

Would anyone say that the worst category of offenders should be slaughtered for their organs?

Would you want the heart of a killer?

You don't really believe that the personality resides in the heart do you?

It's just a blood pump. I'd take it if it kept me alive.

I think he means more of the psychological side to it in terms of your head. Yeah, on the plus side the heart has saved your life but how would it feel walking round with the organ that pumped the same blood as a Ted Bundy?

[mjmooney]

Apropos of the heart thing, thought you might like this - a short story by Ray Bradbury, linked from The Times Online

The Visit

She had called and there was to be a visit.

At first the young man had been reluctant, had said no, no thanks, he was sorry, he understood, but no.

But then when he heard her silence on the other end of the telephone, no sound at all, but the kind of grief which keeps to itself, he had waited a long while and then said, yes, all right, come over, but, please, don’t stay too long. This is a strange situation and I don’t know how to handle it.

Nor did she. Going to the young man’s apartment, she wondered what she would say and how she would react and what he would say. She was terribly afraid of doing something so emotional that he would have to push her out of the apartment and slam the door.

For she didn’t know this young man at all. He was a total and complete stranger. They had never met and only yesterday she had found his name at last, after a desperate search through friends at a local hospital. And now, before it was too late, she simply had to visit a totally unknown person for the most peculiar reasons in all her life, or, for that matter, in the life of all mothers in the world since civilisation began.

“Please wait.”

She gave the cab driver a $20 bill to ensure his being there should she come out sooner than she thought, and stood at the entrance to the apartment for a long moment before she took a deep breath, opened the door, went in, and took the elevator up to the third floor.

She shut her eyes outside his door, and took another deep breath and knocked. There was no answer. With sudden panic, she knocked very hard. This time, at last, the door opened.

The young man, somewhere between 20 and 24, looked timidly out at her and said: “You’re Mrs Hadley?”

“You don’t look like him at all,” she heard herself say. “I mean…” She caught herself and flushed and almost turned to go away.

“You didn’t really expect me to, did you?”

He opened the door wider and stepped aside. There was coffee waiting on a small table in the centre of the apartment.

“No, no, silly. I didn’t know what I was saying.”

“Sit down, please. I’m William Robinson. Bill to you, I guess. Black or white?”

“Black.” And she watched him pour.

“How did you find me?” he said, handing the cup over.

She took it with trembling fingers. “I paid some money to a few people at the hospital. They did some checking.”

“They shouldn’t have.”

“Yes, I know. But I kept at them and I spent just about everything I had. I don’t care. You see, I’m going away to live in France for a year, maybe more. This was my last chance to visit my — I mean…”

She lapsed into silence and stared into the coffee cup.

“So they put two and two together, even though the files were supposed to be locked?” he said, quietly.

“Yes,” she said. “It all came together. The night my son died was the same night you were brought into the hospital for a heart transplant.

It had to be you. There was no other operation like that that night or that week. I knew that when you left the hospital, my son, his heart anyway…” She had difficulty saying it, “…went with you.” She put down the coffee cup.

“I don’t know why I’m here,” she said.

“Yes, you do,” he said.

“Not really, I don’t. It’s all so strange and sad and terrible and at the same time, I don’t know, God’s gift. Does that make any sense?”

“To me it does. I’m alive because of the gift.”

Now it was his turn to fall silent, pour himself coffee, stir it and drink.

“When you leave here,” said the young man, “where will you go?”

“Go?” said the woman, uncertainly.

“I mean…” The young man winced with his own lack of ease. The words simply would not come. “I mean, have you other visits to make? Are there other…”

“I see.” The woman nodded several times, took hold of herself with a motion of her body, looking at her hands in her lap, and at last shrugged. “Yes, there are others. My son, his vision was given to someone in Oregon. There was someone else in Tucson…”

“You don’t have to continue,” said the young man. “I shouldn’t have asked.”

“No, no. It is all so strange, so ridiculous. It is all so new. Just 30 years ago, nothing like this could have happened. Now we’re in a new time. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. Sometimes I start one and then do the other. I wake up confused. I often wonder if he is confused. But that’s even sillier. He is nowhere.”

“He is somewhere,” said the young man. “He is here. And I’m alive because he is here at this very moment.”

The woman’s eyes grew very bright, but no tears fell.

“Yes. Thank you for that.”

“No, I thank him, and you for allowing me to live.”

The woman jumped up suddenly, as if propelled by an emotion stronger than she knew. She looked around for the perfectly obvious door and seemed not to see it.

“Where are you going?”

“I…” she said.

“You just got here!”

“This is stupid!” she cried. “Embarrassing. I’m putting too much of a burden on you, on myself. I’m going now before it all gets so ludicrous I go mad…”

“Stay,” said the young man.

Obedient to the command, she almost sat down.

“Finish your coffee.”

She remained standing, but picked up her coffee cup with shaking hands. The soft rattle of the cup was the only sound for a time as she slaked the coffee with some unquenchable thirst. Then she put the empty cup down and said: “I really must go. I feel faint. I feel I might fall down. I am so embarrassed with myself, with coming here. God bless you, young man, and may you have a long life.”

She started towards the door, but he stood in her way.

“Do what you came to do,” he said.

“What, what?”

“You know. You know very well. I won’t mind. Do it.”

“I…”

“Go on,” he said gently, and shut his eyes, his hands at his side, waiting.

She stared into his face and then at his chest, where under his shirt there seemed the gentlest stirring.

“Now,” he said, quietly.

She almost moved.

“Now,” he said, for a final time.

She took one step forward. She turned her head and quietly placed her right ear down and then again down, inch by inch, until it touched the young man’s chest.

She might have cried out, but did not. She might have exclaimed something, but did not. Her eyes were also shut now and she was listening. Her lips moved, saying something, perhaps a name, over and over, almost to the rhythm of the pulse she heard under the shirt, under the flesh, within the body of the patient young man.

The heart was beating there.

She listened. The heart beat with a steady and regular sound. She listened for a long while. Her breath slowly drained out of her, as colour came into her cheeks.

She listened. The heart beat.

Then she raised her head, looked at the young man’s face for a final time, and very swiftly touched her lips to his cheek, turned and hurried across the room, with no thanks, for none was needed. At the door she did not even turn around but opened it and went out and closed the door softly.

The young man waited for a long moment. His right hand came up and slid across the shirt, across the chest to feel what lay underneath. His eyes were still shut and his face emotionless.

Then he turned and sat down without looking where he sat and picked up his coffee cup to finish his coffee.

The strong pulse, the great vibration of the life within his chest, travelled along his arm and into the cup and caused it to pulse in a steady rhythm, unending, as he placed it against his lips, and drank the coffee as if it were a medicine, a gift, that would refill the cup again and again through more days than he could possibly guess or see. He drained the cup.

Only then did he open his eyes and see that the room was empty.

Originally published in Strand Magazine. Extracted from We’ll Always Have Paris, by Ray Bradbury (HarperVoyager, £7.99). Available from BooksFirst for £7.49, inc. p&p. Tel 0870 165 8585

[TheDon]

Would anyone say that the worst category of offenders should be slaughtered for their organs?

Would you want the heart of a killer?

Would you know?

How do you know when you receive an organ now that you're not getting the heart of a killer? There are no exemptions on organ donation, you could be receiving an organ from a Oxford scholar, or a registered sex offender, you'll never know.

I'd suggest that if you're at liberty to dictate the personality of the donor then you're not really in too much need. For many people who are staring death straight down the face I'm sure if they were offered the heart of the yorkshire ripper they'd take it.

[Wainy316]

Well people have (apparently) been known to develop some traits of the original owner, when receiving a transplant.

I've heard barmy stories about people getting the donors memories or suddenly having the ability to play the piano (which I suppose wouldn't be a bad thing).

[Vojskovoda]

You might be a animal right activist, but in reality, humans are better than all animals - we're so unique to animals.

Every animal is unique to eachother. Are we really better? Look around you. How many animals torture eachother for days and weeks just for a bit of power/information? How many animals destroy the world around us as much as we do?

If anything we are worse than animals, because we have taken our power and abused it to the point of no return.

Hate to say to it, I'm not particulary bothered what animal right activists say, but the fact is, animals aren't just here to roam around grassy fields looking pretty etc... the main priority for us are to eat them, it's our biggest source of food probably.

Yes, animals are a food source. But i'm afraid your deluded faith in your religion has made you believe that the world was created for man, but infact that very religion teaches the opposite and you of all people should know and respect that.

As for testing... yeah, don't see why they shouldn't be tested on.

Thats fair enough.

You obviously don't understand the value and how precious a human's life is to say "test it on prisioners etc..."

I do value peoples lives but I believe some (murderers, rapists) should be valued differently. Now the question is who am i to put value on these lives? I'm nobody, it's just an opinion.

fur coats and python skin handbags my mom has. She likes them so that sits fine with me I suppose.

If you knew how that fur was obtained i have no doubt your opinion would differ.

*Yawns* had to bring religion into it. You've been part of that faith so I don't know why you think you can call the shots so that's make you deluded.

Anyways, what do you think of fur, animal skin etc... used for clothing when it's needed? What about cavemen, it was a main source for their clothing and had to use it to survive. Fair enough if you're against for people using it for fashion, but at the end of the day, if you've got the money to buy fur coates and python skin handbags I don't see what's the problem, you should be blaming Gucci and Prada. There's a fine line, but the bottom line is humans are ahead of animals in the pecking order.

kurtsimon said human's killing each other is animalistic and it shouldn't be tolerated therefore they should be treated like animals. That is a very interesting and valid point, but unfortunately circumstances alter this because even the rules for that would be too complexed for it's own set of rules!

[Awol]

CED,

Do you wear leather shoes?

[Guest Ricardomeister]

I totally agree with CED on the fur coat issue and it reminds me of the iconic campaign....it takes up to 40 supposedly dumb animals to make a fur coat but only one truly dumb animal to wear it. If there were no alternatives to fur then there may be an argument for it. However, there are plenty of cruelty free alternatives so anybody who willingly perpetuates such a cruel industry is severely lacking in decency and compassion imo.

[starsailor9774]

but in reality, humans are better than all animals

Well the next time a lion is in court for murdering a child give me a call and i might agree with you. And, before people shout "DOG ATTACK'S" that is usually caused by an owner having a dog that he/she can't control or has failed to train, living in the wrong surroundings...... a 10th floor council flat isn't the ideal home for a Rottweiler.

And for those saying we have dominion over the animals, yes the Bible may say that....... but i have looked through it and in no verse did it say

"Lo, God came to them and said verily you can eat the beasts. You can also force them to wear lipstick, smoke 20 Benson and pump them full of drugs in the name of science."

[PW]

*shrugs*

they're only animals.

*shrugs again even more pronounced than last time*