MON stay or go

[barry'sboots]

Maybe we should be pm'ing this but I don't think what I said i.e. "I would have liked to see an extra man in the CM to shore things up - Martin obviously didn't and got away with it IMO - we could have drawn/lost that if Deco and/or Anelka had their shooting boots on in the last half hour." does fit in to your first category.

Firstly, I did qualify it with the IMO but also I do feel like we were under the cosh in that last 30 minutes, certainly my finger nails and throat that night were telling me so, and, in many respects, got away with it. This is despite, as I said earlier, being the better side for 30 minutes.

Coincidentally, and back to the main topic of the thread, this was very much the same in a number of games last season where we were ahead and let a lead slip in the last 30 minutes (West Ham h, Stoke h, Man U a) with the difference this season probably being a stronger defence and, in this case, Chelsea not fully taking adavntage.

[commander]

...My point is we're undoing the good work of beating those teams by losing against rubbish, we have better players than the weaker teams, so if we can beat great teams (chelsea, Liverpool) then we can beat poorer teams....unfortunately we have a manager who is too pig headed to try something different.

I firmly believe most people of a reasonable depth of football knowledge could get Villa to do their best to try to beat these poor teams, we don't adapt to opposition - we should do.

. It's amazing how someone who you describe as pig-headed and who you imply lacks a depth of football knowledge managed to get us to beat Chelsea and Liverpool. Presumably it was a fluke?

It's also worth pointing out that Burnley have beaten Everton and Man Utd. Wigan have beaten Chelsea, Stoke have won at Spurs, various sides have beaten Liverpool - To dismiss these as "rubbish" and "poor" sides seems....I dunno....

Blandy, put the semantics to one side and look at the core of what Commander is saying.

Do you think that MON put out the right sides to beat Wigan, Blackburn and Wolves? If you do, do you think he should have made changes to those sides during the game when it was clear that we weren't playing well? Do you think MON should have responded to Mark Hughes bringing on Stephen Ireland? Do you think MON should have responded in the Rapid Vienna game when we were 2-0 up but clearly getting pressed back and they were making chances?

These are the games in which, IMO, MON's lack of flexibility/plan B was exposed.

The Plop game was spot on - he has now built a strong squad that he used to play the 4-5-1 away from home that many had been craving for a long time and got the deserved result. The Chelski game was a great first 60 minutes and then we looked under the cosh. I would have liked to see an extra man in the CM to shore things up - Martin obviously didn't and got away with it IMO - we could have drawn/lost that if Deco and/or Anelka had their shooting boots on in the last half hour.

Of course teams will have off days when things don't go right BUT that, for me, is when a manager really earns his corn by recognising where things aren't maybe working and trying to do something about it - changing formation, making a sub etc.. These, of course, won't always work but better, IMO, to try something and get a result some of the time than not to try and get the same poor performance for the rest of the game 100% of the time? The better managers will get it to work more often than the poorer ones! To MON's credit he even demonstrated that he is capable of doing this in the Blues game and it worked. I just wish he'd try this more often?

And frankly, I don't care if the others didn't perform to the best of their ability or their managers got it wrong against lesser sides, I want the Villa to be up there capitalising on these errors.

I think you are also confusing some matters with your comparison as it is not as simple as just saying they lost to poorer sides e.g. Spurs lost to Stoke but should have beaten them about 7-0 judging by the commentary as they dominated the game but just couldn't score. We haven't done that in our two losses or the Wolves game as far as I am aware?

Yep Barry's boots, you say it far more eloquently than me! I've said before I can take us losing, if we try change something to win the game.

[Big_John_10]

What really annoys me about this post and a number of Big John's is that you are both saying that none of us can express an opinion that is different to MON's without being arrogant and deluded.

You have pointed out every single tactical mistake you think MON has made after every game and claimed that without those mistakes villa would be top of the league. If that's not you thinking you know better than i don't know what is. There is no point having a debate because you think you know more than the currnet manager and that's crazy talk.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

...My point is we're undoing the good work of beating those teams by losing against rubbish, we have better players than the weaker teams, so if we can beat great teams (chelsea, Liverpool) then we can beat poorer teams....unfortunately we have a manager who is too pig headed to try something different.

I firmly believe most people of a reasonable depth of football knowledge could get Villa to do their best to try to beat these poor teams, we don't adapt to opposition - we should do.

. It's amazing how someone who you describe as pig-headed and who you imply lacks a depth of football knowledge managed to get us to beat Chelsea and Liverpool. Presumably it was a fluke?

It's also worth pointing out that Burnley have beaten Everton and Man Utd. Wigan have beaten Chelsea, Stoke have won at Spurs, various sides have beaten Liverpool - To dismiss these as "rubbish" and "poor" sides seems....I dunno....

Blandy, put the semantics to one side and look at the core of what Commander is saying.

Do you think that MON put out the right sides to beat Wigan, Blackburn and Wolves? If you do, do you think he should have made changes to those sides during the game when it was clear that we weren't playing well? Do you think MON should have responded to Mark Hughes bringing on Stephen Ireland? Do you think MON should have responded in the Rapid Vienna game when we were 2-0 up but clearly getting pressed back and they were making chances?

These are the games in which, IMO, MON's lack of flexibility/plan B was exposed.

The Plop game was spot on - he has now built a strong squad that he used to play the 4-5-1 away from home that many had been craving for a long time and got the deserved result. The Chelski game was a great first 60 minutes and then we looked under the cosh. I would have liked to see an extra man in the CM to shore things up - Martin obviously didn't and got away with it IMO - we could have drawn/lost that if Deco and/or Anelka had their shooting boots on in the last half hour.

Of course teams will have off days when things don't go right BUT that, for me, is when a manager really earns his corn by recognising where things aren't maybe working and trying to do something about it - changing formation, making a sub etc.. These, of course, won't always work but better, IMO, to try something and get a result some of the time than not to try and get the same poor performance for the rest of the game 100% of the time? The better managers will get it to work more often than the poorer ones! To MON's credit he even demonstrated that he is capable of doing this in the Blues game and it worked. I just wish he'd try this more often?

And frankly, I don't care if the others didn't perform to the best of their ability or their managers got it wrong against lesser sides, I want the Villa to be up there capitalising on these errors.

I think you are also confusing some matters with your comparison as it is not as simple as just saying they lost to poorer sides e.g. Spurs lost to Stoke but should have beaten them about 7-0 judging by the commentary as they dominated the game but just couldn't score. We haven't done that in our two losses or the Wolves game as far as I am aware?

Yep Barry's boots, you say it far more eloquently than me! I've said before I can take us losing, if we try change something to win the game.

Would you not said we have though?

Against Wigan we were losing, 2-0, no Carew on the bench, couldn't really do too much.

Blues 0-0, brought on Carew, won 1-0.

Blackburn, Took off Delph off for Heskey when Blackburn went down to 10 men, tried to really go for it and win the game, we lost.

Wolves, drawing, maybe learnt not to fully go for it by changing the system so he opts Heskey for Gabby to find a goal, and we do get the goal and we only drop points not because we haven't tried to win the game but an indivudual mistake,.

[barry'sboots]

What really annoys me about this post and a number of Big John's is that you are both saying that none of us can express an opinion that is different to MON's without being arrogant and deluded.

You have pointed out every single tactical mistake you think MON has made after every game and claimed that without those mistakes villa would be top of the league. If that's not you thinking you know better than i don't know what is. There is no point having a debate because you think you know more than the currnet manager and that's crazy talk.

I don't think I have said that we would be top of the league. Clearly, the discussion is hypothetical and there is no way I could say that and if I have I apologise. What I think I said, and should have if I didn't, is that I think, had we selected different teams in three of the games and made tactical substitutions in one or two others, then I believe that we could be top of the league and still in Europe.

Implicitly, I suppose that I am saying that I know better than MON but we all say this when we have a different view to those in power. I'm sure that you have different views to Gordon Brown but that doesn't make you a better Prime Minister or mean that you are likely to be governing the country in the foreseeable future. There are no right or wrongs in such subjective matters, just opinions and some of mine happen to be different to MON's. I would find it surprising if there is anybody out there who agrees with everything MON does?

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

Making great strides, not many, if any real reasons to vote go.

[briny_ear]

Thank heavens we're only getting these polls once a month now!

[markavfc40]

Thank heavens we're only getting these polls once a month now!

I agree but its still eleven more times than necessary.

[blandy]

...I am saying that I know better than MON but we all say this when we have a different view to those in power....

I think if you genuinely believe you know better than MO'N, then you are very misguided. It's a whole different issue from having a different opinion. There are more than one ways to skin a cat, and of course hypothetically if you were picking the team, the tactics, and all the rest of it, the results might have been different - better or worse. I was staggered that he chose Stan and Delph for the first game v Wigan, for example. I know many people were. But that doesn't mean for a moment that I would imply that I know better. I didn't understand why he did it, and still don't. But then I'd never even see Delph play before, let alone seen him in training, seen the others in training, seen who was shining, and who was looking a bit ragged. I'm certain it isn't as simple as it might appear, and as a result I just don't believe an unqualified supporter, however well they may talk on the internet can credibly claim or imply they "know better".

There are no right or wrongs in such subjective matters, just opinions and some of mine happen to be different to MON's. I would find it surprising if there is anybody out there who agrees with everything MON does?

Absolutely. I enjoy reading what people think, what their different views are, and you've explained some of yours well. That's what fans do, it's part of the joy of the game to examine different factors and events and say how this worked and that didn't. I still think it's a dangerous road to go down to take that pub or internet chat and extrapolate from there that any of us "know better".

I guess an analogy would be going for a meal. You can tell if it's well cooked, or if it's been burnt, and you can say so and say why. But to then claim that because the meal was burnt you know more about being a chef is a stretch too far. Because you don't know if the oven was playing up, or if the pastry chef didn't get the mix right, or if the order was forgotten by a waiter. You can blame the chef for a bad meal, you can demand he is sacked, but you can't credibly claim that because you can knock up a mean beans on toast that you know better than the chef about professional cooking for a restaurant.

[Trajan]

Let me get this right, there was no point beating Liverpool and Chelsea?

I thought beating them was the whole point.

[markdell7]

a draw against wolves! he surely has to go! we should win every game!!

[smokingzen]

I don't think anyone is doubting what MON has achieved for the side so far (i might be wrong), but the question for me is can he take us any further and take us that extra step?

Since he has been here MON has taken us consistently into the top 7 of the table and made us one of the 'best of the rest'. He's brought in some very talented young English players and built a very solid and hard to beat side that has a good team spirit, works hard, and has a very British feel to it.

My concern is the style of football he has us playing, and through his career has had most of his teams playing, it's not exactly pretty to watch most of the time and for me indeed it's very frustrating sometimes. More importantly however is that i just don't think that solely playing this style of football will get us and keep us in to the top four, and from there, progress us further into the European competitions. On that level then, I'm not sure if MON is the man to lead us that last step.

I think though that only by the end of next season we will really be able to judge on that question. As many have commented we now have one of the strongest squads ever with some very solid seasoned premiership professionals, some very talented and skillful players that are on the cusp of England places, and some very promising up and coming youngsters. I can't help but think that 2 or 3 real top quality signings in January and the summer could make all the difference. If he's given the financial support over the next year to get these players in, then who knows? I do hope he can take us that extra step, but there are many doubts in my mind that he can.

On the subject of negativity, like many of us I expect I am a bit of a perfectionist that will never really be totally satisfied and always want more. Kind of human nature in a way. First and foremost I want us to win, but if we do win then I want us to win well with a side playing good entertaining football. If we finish fourth this season or next, then the next season I will want us to finish in the top three and possibly even win the premiership. If we win it, then I would want us to win it again, and also go on to compete in and win the Champions League, or do a double or a treble. As such then as a Villa supporter I want us to achieve the pinnacle of what can be achieved. The kind of outlook doesn't blind me to the progress we've made, and make me ungrateful to the people that have achieved that progress. It's obviously not an easy task, otherwise everybody would be doing it. I will be happy as long as we are making progress, but I can't help thinking that come the end of this year or the next, it will have to be another manager that takes up that task. I will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

[TRO]

I don't think anyone is doubting what MON has achieved for the side so far (i might be wrong), but the question for me is can he take us any further and take us that extra step?

Since he has been here MON has taken us consistently into the top 7 of the table and made us one of the 'best of the rest'. He's brought in some very talented young English players and built a very solid and hard to beat side that has a good team spirit, works hard, and has a very British feel to it.

My concern is the style of football he has us playing, and through his career has had most of his teams playing, it's not exactly pretty to watch most of the time and for me indeed it's very frustrating sometimes. More importantly however is that i just don't think that solely playing this style of football will get us and keep us in to the top four, and from there, progress us further into the European competitions. On that level then, I'm not sure if MON is the man to lead us that last step.

I think though that only by the end of next season we will really be able to judge on that question. As many have commented we now have one of the strongest squads ever with some very solid seasoned premiership professionals, some very talented and skillful players that are on the cusp of England places, and some very promising up and coming youngsters. I can't help but think that 2 or 3 real top quality signings in January and the summer could make all the difference. If he's given the financial support over the next year to get these players in, then who knows? I do hope he can take us that extra step, but there are many doubts in my mind that he can.

On the subject of negativity, like many of us I expect I am a bit of a perfectionist that will never really be totally satisfied and always want more. Kind of human nature in a way. First and foremost I want us to win, but if we do win then I want us to win well with a side playing good entertaining football. If we finish fourth this season or next, then the next season I will want us to finish in the top three and possibly even win the premiership. If we win it, then I would want us to win it again, and also go on to compete in and win the Champions League, or do a double or a treble. As such then as a Villa supporter I want us to achieve the pinnacle of what can be achieved. The kind of outlook doesn't blind me to the progress we've made, and make me ungrateful to the people that have achieved that progress. It's obviously not an easy task, otherwise everybody would be doing it. I will be happy as long as we are making progress, but I can't help thinking that come the end of this year or the next, it will have to be another manager that takes up that task. I will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

On the subject of negativity, like many of us I expect I am a bit of a perfectionist that will never really be totally satisfied and always want more.

Thank god for that...negative far from it.

I rather suspect perfectionists are positive folk, always striving to be the best .... you know a bit like the top four.

[PompeyVillan]

There is a difference from being negative and being critical. I'd rather people were critical than negative. Afterall, this is a message board, and it adds nothing to the discussion to be negative.

[TRO]

There is a difference from being negative and being critical. I'd rather people were critical than negative. Afterall, this is a message board, and it adds nothing to the discussion to be negative.

sadly some don't know the difference.

[chillinvillan]

Stay, no need to state the obvious.

[barry'sboots]

There is a difference from being negative and being critical. I'd rather people were critical than negative. Afterall, this is a message board, and it adds nothing to the discussion to be negative.

I'll do my best.

Critical - another bizarre formation for the front 6 (from listening to it on the radio) where the players seemingly don't know where they are playing and are getting in each others way.

Positives - a great performance from the two CB's and little Brad. Defence now sorted!

If MON wants to play 4-5-1 he has the CM's to do this without squeezing Jimmy inside. He just seems desperate to find a place in the side for one of either JC or Emile. JC is not playing well and Emile needs to play in a 4-4-2 IMO or his best assets are wasted?

[Gringo]

He just seems desperate to find a place in the side for one of either JC or Emile. JC is not playing well and Emile needs to play in a 4-4-2 IMO or his best assets are wasted?

At least this shows flexibility - the accusation used to be that he was desperate to always find a place for Heskey - now he has twice the options.

[Gringo]

[Phumfeinz]

I bet you had fun making that.