MON stay or go

[Sit_Down_Potato_Head]

Best start in 10 years?

Votes "Go", obviously.

*doesn't*

Numpties - the lot of you !

[villatillidie1980]

I must say, I find it odd that anyone would wish for a new manager at the moment. He proved correct with the signings he made over the summer (Downing aside - for now) and we're clearly not playing to our full capacity all of the time yet, but still getting results, two of which have come against the 'big four'. For me, there is no way I would swap him.

[Pilchard]

I also question whether he can take us any further.

Partly because of his managerial skill - some of which are things which have been said time and time again such as signings which at times leave a lot to be desired and his tactical 'non-changes' irritate the hell out of me. But inspite of that, you can't deny that he's improved the team and we're currently at a place in the league table which is about right where we should be.

But there are other factors. The terrible state of refereeing in this country, for example. Until referees are sorted out, I firmly believe that teams such as Villa won't be able to progress. There are too many referees swayed by the home crowd (the three penalty decisions the referee made at the Wolves game this weekend were the only things he seemd to get right - it's hard to get into the game when the referee is giving every decision to the opposition), or referees too busy trying not to upset the bigger team. Best example of that is the non-penalty and non-sending off of the Chelsea player from last week. Put that at the other end, it would have been a penalty. Put that at the other end at Stamford Bridge - it's a penalty (ask Zat Knight about that one).

Until the referees are fair and play to the rules for all teams, we won't see a competative Premiership.

There are also a lot of teams out there with a lot more money than us too. And money talks. Lets face it, it's the major contributing factor to why we've become a better club over the past few years.

That's why I'd vote 'Stay'. Because it's more than a Martin O'Neill factor working against us here. And if Martin did leave, I don't think there would be many managers around able to get the performance that we do see out of these players.

[barry'sboots]

That doesn't make a number of the points on this thread invalid.

I haven't voted for MON to go because I think he has built a very good squad and is capable of getting good results, BUT I am still left massively frustrated by his inflexibility and lack of tactical awareness without which I believe we could be top of the table at present.

I do, however, agree with many that I am not that sure who we would get in as a replacement that would do any better. Rafa makes the same mistakes, even SAF plays players in strange positions and Wenger still hasn't worked out that he needs a midfield enforcer. They are a frustrating bunch.

Its just a good job that we are all far superior managers. Wouldn't you just love a crack at it and I'd only need £10k a week to accept the job!

You make good points and tactically he isn't always right at all, but to say if tactically he weren't so stubborn we'd be top because don't forget we've picked up 7 points against Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City and that's not down to sheer luck! I thought the changes he made in the Blackburn game cost us the match. Apart from that I don't think tactically he's got too much wrong this year. Might say the Wigan game but none of the players seemed up for it, seemed a lack of belief, everyone that day was poor.

Look at this season:

- we had a great pre-season after Stan went off injured - turning around Atlante, beating Porto and Juventus

- first game of the season he opens against Wigan with a 4-4-2 with Stan, who had just come back from injury, and a new 18 yo who will be very good I am sure. This was against a Wigan team playing 4-5-1 and with battlers aplenty. I felt sure from the kick off that we would get outmuscled in here and also how p'd off the CM that had got those victories in pre-season must have been. Any rhetoric about picking in form players was blown away by this selection. Again, no response at half time despite the problem being clear.

- we then go away to Plop and perform admirably in a 4-5-1 followed by a comfortable home victory against Fulham with the same team.

- in between he goes back to the team that got murdered by Wigan for the Rapid Vienna game. They do okay to get to 2-0 but it is clear that CM is starting to get overrun. Why no change - either fresh legs or 4-5-1?

- he does okay away at Blues although NRC wouldn't have been the one that I subbed, but that's just personal preference.

- we are then poor against Pompey with a 4-4-2 but manage to scrape a win due to a rash tackle by Belhadj and a bit of excellence from Gab

- ditto Cardiff where we scrape a win

- we are then away to Blackburn and put in a generally lacklustre performance with the 4-4-2. Again, his only sub is JC for EH. What about trying JC for NRC or FD to get hold of the ball in the middle? We know we can do well with the 4-5-1 away from home and JC is certainly not playing well enough to say we would be mad to leave him out?

- against Citeh we do well to get our noses in front but they bring on Ireland who starts to dominate the game and MON fails to respond to nullify this.

- nearly similar experience against Chelski where, but for poor finishing from Deco and Anelka, we could have drawn/lost a game we deserved to win but MON will not shore up that CM area.

- for the Wolves game he goes away with the same side/set up that was so poor against Blackburn and they put in a similar performance with the only tactical change MON can make being the subbing of JC for Emile.

I feel that there are a lot of points lost here where he could have responded to our performances and opponents initiatives more positively. I feel MON is too one dimensional and we are suffering as a result and the guys on the bench/in the squad must be going crazy.

I am not looking for wholesale changes. I certainly wouldn't be look to change around a back 4, for example, that has really come together. It is minor tweaks:

- 4-5-1 or minimum 4-4-2 with NRC in there against aggressive teams like Wigan and Blackburn that are gonna chase you down and not try to play football initially

- subtler use of JC, say as an impact sub as against Blues, particularly given his poor form of late

- changing the CM for the last 20 mins when we are starting to get overrun and Stan is tiring (I don't think even the most ardent Stan fan can disagree that he does, even if they will argue that he is having to do the work of two CM's hence he tires) and either subbing one of the two or switching to a 4-5-1

I just don't see any ideas coming from MON. I would prefer him to try something and maybe come a cropper occasionally than stick to the 4-4-2 with Emile for JC in the last 20 which I don't think necessarily works anyway?

[barry'sboots]

It looks like that a small group of people want him out and barrysboot and TRO believe they have enough experience managing premiership football teams that they can clearly see what tactical changes need to be made at certain points in the game to ensure that we win every game and play attractive quality football. Seriously boys get your applications ready for when a job opens up.

Not what I'm saying. I'm giving my views on how I would like to see our team managed. Apologies, but i thought that was the purpose of a discussion forum?? If you think mine, or indeed TRO's, views are incorrect then feel free to explain why the constant strategy of 4-4-2 with a late subbing of JC for Emile is the holy footballing grail of tactical genius. Maybe then we can have a decent debate/discussion?

[Risso]

Best start in 10 years?

Votes "Go", obviously.

*doesn't*

Numpties - the lot of you !

It isn't our best start in 10 years though.

*renders rest of juvenile post redundant*

[Big_John_10]

It looks like that a small group of people want him out and barrysboot and TRO believe they have enough experience managing premiership football teams that they can clearly see what tactical changes need to be made at certain points in the game to ensure that we win every game and play attractive quality football. Seriously boys get your applications ready for when a job opens up.

Not what I'm saying. I'm giving my views on how I would like to see our team managed. Apologies, but i thought that was the purpose of a discussion forum?? If you think mine, or indeed TRO's, views are incorrect then feel free to explain why the constant strategy of 4-4-2 with a late subbing of JC for Emile is the holy footballing grail of tactical genius. Maybe then we can have a decent debate/discussion?

I don't think what we do is the holy footballing grail of tacical genius but at the same time i don't believe that i know more about management and think my opinions would work better than what MON does. I don't think the same can be said about you two.

Things aren't always perfect but when teams like chelsea, man u, barcelona and real madrid can't get it right week in week out then i don't see why i should expect aston villa to get it right all the time.

Until things are so bad that my expectation are then not met i really don't see the point in questioning everything the manager does and moaning about little things when we don't get the perfect result every game. You two always post as though there are no consequeces, as though if MON followed your ideas they'd never go wrong.

I want us to challenge for a top 4 place this season, at the moment that's exactly what we are doing, MON has done enough in his time at villa to be given the chance to fail and i can't see the point in getting on his back and complaining about every little detail everytime a result doesn't go exactly how we want it to.

Sometimes we won't play well and sometimes we will end up with a result that we didn't want but that's football and that happens to better teams than us who spend a shit load more money and have the ability to attract better players.

[Risso]

Big_John, your constant assertion that people who criticise the manager must consider themselves to be superior football managers to O'Neill, really is childish drivel of the highest order.

[dundeevilla]

The fact we've got an "MON stay or go" thread is mental.

Let's not make VT a laughing stock.

15 or so want him to go, we all know who they are and why they think we'd be better off without MON. They're entitled to their opinion.

But let's discuss things that might happen in the real world this season.....all this is daft.

[commander]

That doesn't make a number of the points on this thread invalid.

I haven't voted for MON to go because I think he has built a very good squad and is capable of getting good results, BUT I am still left massively frustrated by his inflexibility and lack of tactical awareness without which I believe we could be top of the table at present.

I do, however, agree with many that I am not that sure who we would get in as a replacement that would do any better. Rafa makes the same mistakes, even SAF plays players in strange positions and Wenger still hasn't worked out that he needs a midfield enforcer. They are a frustrating bunch.

Its just a good job that we are all far superior managers. Wouldn't you just love a crack at it and I'd only need £10k a week to accept the job!

You make good points and tactically he isn't always right at all, but to say if tactically he weren't so stubborn we'd be top because don't forget we've picked up 7 points against Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City and that's not down to sheer luck! I thought the changes he made in the Blackburn game cost us the match. Apart from that I don't think tactically he's got too much wrong this year. Might say the Wigan game but none of the players seemed up for it, seemed a lack of belief, everyone that day was poor.

Look at this season:

- we had a great pre-season after Stan went off injured - turning around Atlante, beating Porto and Juventus

- first game of the season he opens against Wigan with a 4-4-2 with Stan, who had just come back from injury, and a new 18 yo who will be very good I am sure. This was against a Wigan team playing 4-5-1 and with battlers aplenty. I felt sure from the kick off that we would get outmuscled in here and also how p'd off the CM that had got those victories in pre-season must have been. Any rhetoric about picking in form players was blown away by this selection. Again, no response at half time despite the problem being clear.

- we then go away to Plop and perform admirably in a 4-5-1 followed by a comfortable home victory against Fulham with the same team.

- in between he goes back to the team that got murdered by Wigan for the Rapid Vienna game. They do okay to get to 2-0 but it is clear that CM is starting to get overrun. Why no change - either fresh legs or 4-5-1?

- he does okay away at Blues although NRC wouldn't have been the one that I subbed, but that's just personal preference.

- we are then poor against Pompey with a 4-4-2 but manage to scrape a win due to a rash tackle by Belhadj and a bit of excellence from Gab

- ditto Cardiff where we scrape a win

- we are then away to Blackburn and put in a generally lacklustre performance with the 4-4-2. Again, his only sub is JC for EH. What about trying JC for NRC or FD to get hold of the ball in the middle? We know we can do well with the 4-5-1 away from home and JC is certainly not playing well enough to say we would be mad to leave him out?

- against Citeh we do well to get our noses in front but they bring on Ireland who starts to dominate the game and MON fails to respond to nullify this.

- nearly similar experience against Chelski where, but for poor finishing from Deco and Anelka, we could have drawn/lost a game we deserved to win but MON will not shore up that CM area.

- for the Wolves game he goes away with the same side/set up that was so poor against Blackburn and they put in a similar performance with the only tactical change MON can make being the subbing of JC for Emile.

I feel that there are a lot of points lost here where he could have responded to our performances and opponents initiatives more positively. I feel MON is too one dimensional and we are suffering as a result and the guys on the bench/in the squad must be going crazy.

I am not looking for wholesale changes. I certainly wouldn't be look to change around a back 4, for example, that has really come together. It is minor tweaks:

- 4-5-1 or minimum 4-4-2 with NRC in there against aggressive teams like Wigan and Blackburn that are gonna chase you down and not try to play football initially

- subtler use of JC, say as an impact sub as against Blues, particularly given his poor form of late

- changing the CM for the last 20 mins when we are starting to get overrun and Stan is tiring (I don't think even the most ardent Stan fan can disagree that he does, even if they will argue that he is having to do the work of two CM's hence he tires) and either subbing one of the two or switching to a 4-5-1

I just don't see any ideas coming from MON. I would prefer him to try something and maybe come a cropper occasionally than stick to the 4-4-2 with Emile for JC in the last 20 which I don't think necessarily works anyway?

I agree with this post in it's entirety. If we can see it why can't MON?

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

That doesn't make a number of the points on this thread invalid.

I haven't voted for MON to go because I think he has built a very good squad and is capable of getting good results, BUT I am still left massively frustrated by his inflexibility and lack of tactical awareness without which I believe we could be top of the table at present.

I do, however, agree with many that I am not that sure who we would get in as a replacement that would do any better. Rafa makes the same mistakes, even SAF plays players in strange positions and Wenger still hasn't worked out that he needs a midfield enforcer. They are a frustrating bunch.

Its just a good job that we are all far superior managers. Wouldn't you just love a crack at it and I'd only need £10k a week to accept the job!

You make good points and tactically he isn't always right at all, but to say if tactically he weren't so stubborn we'd be top because don't forget we've picked up 7 points against Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City and that's not down to sheer luck! I thought the changes he made in the Blackburn game cost us the match. Apart from that I don't think tactically he's got too much wrong this year. Might say the Wigan game but none of the players seemed up for it, seemed a lack of belief, everyone that day was poor.

Look at this season:

- we had a great pre-season after Stan went off injured - turning around Atlante, beating Porto and Juventus

- first game of the season he opens against Wigan with a 4-4-2 with Stan, who had just come back from injury, and a new 18 yo who will be very good I am sure. This was against a Wigan team playing 4-5-1 and with battlers aplenty. I felt sure from the kick off that we would get outmuscled in here and also how p'd off the CM that had got those victories in pre-season must have been. Any rhetoric about picking in form players was blown away by this selection. Again, no response at half time despite the problem being clear.

- we then go away to Plop and perform admirably in a 4-5-1 followed by a comfortable home victory against Fulham with the same team.

- in between he goes back to the team that got murdered by Wigan for the Rapid Vienna game. They do okay to get to 2-0 but it is clear that CM is starting to get overrun. Why no change - either fresh legs or 4-5-1?

- he does okay away at Blues although NRC wouldn't have been the one that I subbed, but that's just personal preference.

- we are then poor against Pompey with a 4-4-2 but manage to scrape a win due to a rash tackle by Belhadj and a bit of excellence from Gab

- ditto Cardiff where we scrape a win

- we are then away to Blackburn and put in a generally lacklustre performance with the 4-4-2. Again, his only sub is JC for EH. What about trying JC for NRC or FD to get hold of the ball in the middle? We know we can do well with the 4-5-1 away from home and JC is certainly not playing well enough to say we would be mad to leave him out?

- against Citeh we do well to get our noses in front but they bring on Ireland who starts to dominate the game and MON fails to respond to nullify this.

- nearly similar experience against Chelski where, but for poor finishing from Deco and Anelka, we could have drawn/lost a game we deserved to win but MON will not shore up that CM area.

- for the Wolves game he goes away with the same side/set up that was so poor against Blackburn and they put in a similar performance with the only tactical change MON can make being the subbing of JC for Emile.

I feel that there are a lot of points lost here where he could have responded to our performances and opponents initiatives more positively. I feel MON is too one dimensional and we are suffering as a result and the guys on the bench/in the squad must be going crazy.

I am not looking for wholesale changes. I certainly wouldn't be look to change around a back 4, for example, that has really come together. It is minor tweaks:

- 4-5-1 or minimum 4-4-2 with NRC in there against aggressive teams like Wigan and Blackburn that are gonna chase you down and not try to play football initially

- subtler use of JC, say as an impact sub as against Blues, particularly given his poor form of late

- changing the CM for the last 20 mins when we are starting to get overrun and Stan is tiring (I don't think even the most ardent Stan fan can disagree that he does, even if they will argue that he is having to do the work of two CM's hence he tires) and either subbing one of the two or switching to a 4-5-1

I just don't see any ideas coming from MON. I would prefer him to try something and maybe come a cropper occasionally than stick to the 4-4-2 with Emile for JC in the last 20 which I don't think necessarily works anyway?

I agree with this post in it's entirety. If we can see it why can't MON?

Because there's more to tactics than just formations.

[barry'sboots]

Because there's more to tactics than just formations.

I agree with this. Formation and substitutions are one component of a tactical approach, albeit a fairly major component IMO.

But do you think that MON is right to persist with the 4-4-2 with JC for Emile being pretty much his only change when things aren't working?

There is a debate to be had about tactics I think. I know Big John would like to restrict participation in this debate to the 20 or so premier league managers but I am guessing that would restrict many of us from expressing any views on our club on this site and leave it all to the posts saying "Isn't MON great" or "Should we sign XXXX in January" - not that stimulating for many of us??

[Big_John_10]

Big_John, your constant assertion that people who criticise the manager must consider themselves to be superior football managers to O'Neill, really is childish drivel of the highest order.

You've got yourself confused again, i haven't claimed that at all, i've pointed our that IMO their are 2 or 3 posters who certainly post their opinion as if they think they know better.

For example on this page already i've read

BUT I am still left massively frustrated by his inflexibility and lack of tactical awareness without which I believe we could be top of the table at present.

Its just a good job that we are all far superior managers. Wouldn't you just love a crack at it and I'd only need £10k a week to accept the job!

I agree with this post in it's entirety. If we can see it why can't MON?

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Because there's more to tactics than just formations.

I agree with this. Formation and substitutions are one component of a tactical approach, albeit a fairly major component IMO.

But do you think that MON is right to persist with the 4-4-2 with JC for Emile being pretty much his only change when things aren't working?

There is a debate to be had about tactics I think. I know Big John would like to restrict participation in this debate to the 20 or so premier league managers but I am guessing that would restrict many of us from expressing any views on our club on this site and leave it all to the posts saying "Isn't MON great" or "Should we sign XXXX in January" - not that stimulating for many of us??

Of course it shouldn't be his only change, I'm dissapointed at times when he fails to make a subsitution like it but I don't think it's cost us too much this year just yet. So it's hard to judge, because it's not as if the subsitution he's making constantly doesn't work.

Wigan - Bad starting line up.

Liverpool - Spot on.

Fulham - Spot on.

Blues - Spot on, from 4-5-1 changing to 4-4-2 (A tactic I'd like to see emplyed more)

Portsmouth - Got it right choosing 4-4-2.

Blackburn - Starting with 4-4-2 weren't too bad, although bringing Heskey on for Delph and losing our shape cost us in my opinion.

Man City - Starting line up was decent, although 5 minutes before the City goal, he should of made the sub to go 4-5-1 as we were getting over-run!

Chelsea - Spot on.

Wolves - Actually worked the Subsitution bringing on Heskey, as he created the goal, similar match to Blues, we held on against Blues, this time 1 individual error cost us. Apart from that, we looked comfortable for the win.

[Pilchard]

You've got yourself confused again, i haven't claimed that at all,

TRO believe they have enough experience managing premiership football teams that they can clearly see what tactical changes need to be made at certain points in the game to ensure that we win every game and play attractive quality football. Seriously boys get your applications ready for when a job opens up

[Big_John_10]

But do you think that MON is right to persist with the 4-4-2 with JC for Emile being pretty much his only change when things aren't working?

I'm not sure if you've seen many games this season but i don't think we've stuck with a rigid 4-4-2 formation like you keep going on about. In the last game there were periods of play when the formation was changed.

We changed to 4-4-2 which helped us beat blues, we then beat pompey and cardiff using the same formation. We lost to blackburn but then using 4-4-2 got a point against man city who many think will leave us behind and beat probably the favourites for the league. It wasn't a great performance saturday but the result wasn't too bad and i certainly don't think we are struggling so much that drastic changes to the formation have to be made every time we have a period of play where we aren't dominating.

I could understand the moaning more if we'd fallen massively behind the teams we were competing with but we haven't.

Also i'm pretty sure those that wanted him out made some very negative predictions about the transfers and how we would do back in july and august, surely after he proved you wrong he deserves the chance to continue to do that doesn't he?

I know Big John would like to restrict participation in this debate to the 20 or so premier league managers but I am guessing that would restrict many of us from expressing any views on our club on this site and leave it all to the posts saying "Isn't MON great" or "Should we sign XXXX in January" - not that stimulating for many of us??

Don't mind me, if you enjoy pretending to be a football manager on your computer keep going.

[Big_John_10]

You've got yourself confused again, i haven't claimed that at all,

TRO believe they have enough experience managing premiership football teams that they can clearly see what tactical changes need to be made at certain points in the game to ensure that we win every game and play attractive quality football. Seriously boys get your applications ready for when a job opens up

I know what i wrote so if you're going to cut my quote to make a point it might not work.

What i said was

i haven't claimed that at all, i've pointed our that IMO their are 2 or 3 posters who certainly post their opinion as if they think they know better.

Which your quote backs up, so thanks.

[Stevo985]

Agree with BJ about the rigid 442 thing. For long periods on Saturday we were playing 4-5-1 with gabby on the right, Milner in the middle and Carew on his own up top.

[reykjavik]

Because there's more to tactics than just formations.

I agree with this. Formation and substitutions are one component of a tactical approach, albeit a fairly major component IMO.

But do you think that MON is right to persist with the 4-4-2 with JC for Emile being pretty much his only change when things aren't working?

There is a debate to be had about tactics I think. I know Big John would like to restrict participation in this debate to the 20 or so premier league managers but I am guessing that would restrict many of us from expressing any views on our club on this site and leave it all to the posts saying "Isn't MON great" or "Should we sign XXXX in January" - not that stimulating for many of us??

Of course it shouldn't be his only change, I'm dissapointed at times when he fails to make a subsitution like it but I don't think it's cost us too much this year just yet. So it's hard to judge, because it's not as if the subsitution he's making constantly doesn't work.

Wigan - Bad starting line up.

Liverpool - Spot on.

Fulham - Spot on.

Blues - Spot on, from 4-5-1 changing to 4-4-2 (A tactic I'd like to see emplyed more)

Portsmouth - Got it right choosing 4-4-2.

Blackburn - Starting with 4-4-2 weren't too bad, although bringing Heskey on for Delph and losing our shape cost us in my opinion.

Man City - Starting line up was decent, although 5 minutes before the City goal, he should of made the sub to go 4-5-1 as we were getting over-run!

Chelsea - Spot on.

Wolves - Actually worked the Subsitution bringing on Heskey, as he created the goal, similar match to Blues, we held on against Blues, this time 1 individual error cost us. Apart from that, we looked comfortable for the win.

Heskey made this goal. I'm not sure others (most of them) in the team can control the ball like Heskey did on saturday. Why can't we do better? Well I'm not sure sacking MON is the solution. It's happends again, again and again.

[Pilchard]

Which your quote backs up, so thanks.

You said you'd never claimed that people who criticise the manager must consider themselves to be superior football managers to O'Neill. Personally, I think that quote is something that suggests otherwise.