Big_John_10 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I'm not worried, like i said the people who pay there money aren't going to turn on the manager. I just don't see why some want him gone because so far this season every game hasn't gone perfect. After you pulled out one of these retarded 'I'm a better fan than you as I pay money to go to games' comment, I asked you if you were there on Sat? Obviously you must have been there seeing as you're such a great supporter and as we all know spending money on following your team and supporting the manager is completely intrinsically linked. I was there, and guess what? I paid for it! BUT WAIT, I'm not behind the manager for reasons already disclosed. ZOMG!!! It seems that I am able to hold an opinion different to yours whilst still paying money to my club. I told you it wasn't an i'm a better fan than you comment, if you choose to ignore that there isn't much i can do. My point is that the board are not going to listen to a small group of fans moaning on the internet about the manager when the fans that pay their money are singing his name week in week out. You're correct that there probably are some who want him out who go to games and well done for that but again like the people on the internet no one is going to listen to you because quite clearly the majority of villa supporters who travel home and away disagree. The fans attending games are the ones who can put pressure on the board, nothing to do with being a better fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 26, 2009 Moderator Share Posted October 26, 2009 ...i just think it's a shame that the main villa forum is full of so much negativity. It is a shame, given the good state of the club all through. Some, though not much, of the negative comment is well thought out, well expressed and adds to the discussions. A lot of it is well short of that, though. What's the saying about tomorrow's chip wrapping? It pretty much applies to all that all of us write, and it's certainly not worth arguing with people who can't put a coherent argument as to why they think what they say they think. "MO'N's a clueless idiot", "We only play 4-4-2 and only ever bring Heskey on". "why can't he see what I can see and do what I'd do?" - It's just not worth getting bothered about this type of "opinion". At the end of the day results are the thing that matter, not whether a small minority think MO'N is a clown. There are always areas that the team could improve, always things to work at, and it's fair comment to try to analyse these, put forward ideas or criticisms, or even propose a change of manager, or chairman, or whoever, and if people can explain why they think that, then it's often an interesting read, or can start a good debate, but the likes of this thread show that much of the debate at the moment is more about people trying to score points off each other. On Saturday we played 4-5-1 in the second half, and made a sub where an International striker came on for a player who wasn't having his best game, and the sub then set up our goal. You wouldn't know it from reading some of the posts in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 becuase people are entitled to form their own opinion... i personally dont share their opinions, but they are allowed to have them... I understand that, i just think it's a real shame that the main villa forum is full of so much negativity and has been for some time. SNIIIIIPPPP When do we get to sit back and enjoy being a villa fan? For someone who is supposedly against negativity, you probably do more moaning on here than everybody else put together. Any slight hint that a poster isn't 100% happy with everything at the club, and you stamp your little feet like a spolit four year old who didn't win a rosette at pony club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 becuase people are entitled to form their own opinion... i personally dont share their opinions, but they are allowed to have them... I understand that, i just think it's a real shame that the main villa forum is full of so much negativity and has been for some time. SNIIIIIPPPP When do we get to sit back and enjoy being a villa fan? For someone who is supposedly against negativity, you probably do more moaning on here than everybody else put together. Any slight hint that a poster isn't 100% happy with everything at the club, and you stamp your little feet like a spolit four year old who didn't win a rosette at pony club. So a bit like yourself with the manager whenever we don't win or if he doesn't sign the players you want quick enough? What a terrible fan i must be, i mean being negative about people who do nothing but moan about the club i support, i don't know how i'll sleep tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trajan Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 How long is this poll running for? I hope the 'No' camp aren't pushing it into Fergie Time, particularly as a guy in off topic reckons the world's ending next week or something equally daft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Just thought I would interject here, IMO you hear a lot more people wanting Mon to go down at the actual ground than you read on this forum. Obviously its hard for me to gauge an accurate opinion of a ground that holds over 40,000 people, however I'm never too far from a group of strong opinions and you dont hear much good said about him. I'm sure its more alcohol fuelled than anything mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 It is a shame, given the good state of the club all through. Some, though not much, of the negative comment is well thought out, well expressed and adds to the discussions. A lot of it is well short of that, though. What's the saying about tomorrow's chip wrapping? It pretty much applies to all that all of us write, and it's certainly not worth arguing with people who can't put a coherent argument as to why they think what they say they think. "MO'N's a clueless idiot", "We only play 4-4-2 and only ever bring Heskey on". "why can't he see what I can see and do what I'd do?" - It's just not worth getting bothered about this type of "opinion". At the end of the day results are the thing that matter, not whether a small minority think MO'N is a clown. There are always areas that the team could improve, always things to work at, and it's fair comment to try to analyse these, put forward ideas or criticisms, or even propose a change of manager, or chairman, or whoever, and if people can explain why they think that, then it's often an interesting read, or can start a good debate, but the likes of this thread show that much of the debate at the moment is more about people trying to score points off each other. On Saturday we played 4-5-1 in the second half, and made a sub where an International striker came on for a player who wasn't having his best game, and the sub then set up our goal. You wouldn't know it from reading some of the posts in this thread. As usual Pete is spot on. This poll just proves that you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacko Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Their are times where hes pig headed ness drives me up the wall and times in the past where he has made some awful decisions but which manager dont? i expect even man u fans spend a couple of weekends a year cussing fergie sayin f*** him off get some one new inn. But when i think about it who would we replace MON with i cant think of anyone who we have a realistic chance of getting plus i would be gutted to see him go as i think he is building a good side at Villa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 It is a shame, given the good state of the club all through. Some, though not much, of the negative comment is well thought out, well expressed and adds to the discussions. A lot of it is well short of that, though. What's the saying about tomorrow's chip wrapping? It pretty much applies to all that all of us write, and it's certainly not worth arguing with people who can't put a coherent argument as to why they think what they say they think. "MO'N's a clueless idiot", "We only play 4-4-2 and only ever bring Heskey on". "why can't he see what I can see and do what I'd do?" - It's just not worth getting bothered about this type of "opinion". At the end of the day results are the thing that matter, not whether a small minority think MO'N is a clown. There are always areas that the team could improve, always things to work at, and it's fair comment to try to analyse these, put forward ideas or criticisms, or even propose a change of manager, or chairman, or whoever, and if people can explain why they think that, then it's often an interesting read, or can start a good debate, but the likes of this thread show that much of the debate at the moment is more about people trying to score points off each other. On Saturday we played 4-5-1 in the second half, and made a sub where an International striker came on for a player who wasn't having his best game, and the sub then set up our goal. You wouldn't know it from reading some of the posts in this thread. As usual Pete is spot on. This poll just proves that you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. the sad fact is coherent/feasible points have been put forward and quite eloquently at times by some posters in my view ,but you have tunnel vision and only default to your own arguements....they have just met with a barrage of intransigence. Blandy, has his view, like you, but see anything different as a Martin out campaign. If we win, it is deemed inappropriate to make any kind of criticism or is ill timed( or can't we at least enjoy a win)....If we loose we are jumping on the bandwagon or being critical when the team need support.... its just a heads you lose tails you lose Arguement. There surely has to be times, when you can have decent debate about our short comings without having to defend yourself as some radical subversive hell bent on bringing down a great institution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulanddonya Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 As I have said before, I think the next 6 weeks in MON's reign is the most important of his career at Villa. Yes - we have done well up to now, and he has taken us from relegation fodder to European fodder. The argument is, given the support both financially, and being allowed to do it "his" way - could another manager have done the same / better - some say yes , some say no. This season we are about where we should be- Liverpool / Chelsea - better than expected results Man C / Fulham / Pompey / Blues - expected results Wigan / Blackburn / Wolves - worse than expected results. About even. However, the next six weeks will see it go one way or the other - and especially the next seven days. Beat Sunderlalast and Everton and West Ham - we are in the last 16 of the cup and somewhere around 3rd - obviously I and everyone will be ecstatic , and will say "Carry on Martin - you are doing grand" However, lose those three and we are around 12th, out of two cups and facing a struggle - it will be very different. The main worry for me, is the same worries we have now, are the same we had three years ago. Even then, we beat Chelsea, and drew at Arsenal etc... but then ruined it against the likes of Wigan, West Brom etc.. and three years on we have Richard Dunne saying the same thing - why can't MOn motivate his players against weaker opposition - it's got to be asked, and asked by the board - because until they come up with the answer - you can forget moving forward. I don't know whether anyone seen Goals on Sunday - but even Steve Stone mentioned the "Juninho moment" - the time when we had one chance and blew it. Personally, I think time repeated itself in January and that's it. Believe me, nothing would give me greater pleasure than being wrong and we do progress, I have spent 10's of thousands of pounds watching Villa against the likes of Peterborough, Bradford and Barnsley - I think I've earned the right to see Barcelona and AC Milan down Villa Park - unfortunately - I just can't see it happening under O'Neill. Allerdyce , Moyes, O'Neill , Hodgson , Bruce , and Zola - given the resources, I would back any of them to get a club top 6. I wouldn't back any of them to move a club into the top 4 - it's a different breed of manager. To me, only Redknapp may be able to do it from this country. Not now, not next year, but maybe the year after, Villa will need to I dont want O'Neill to go now, I don't even want him to go next year - as I think he deserves a crack at trying. But I bet my bottom dollar we will be in the same position come 2011 and things will change. My opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 That doesn't make a number of the points on this thread invalid. I haven't voted for MON to go because I think he has built a very good squad and is capable of getting good results, BUT I am still left massively frustrated by his inflexibility and lack of tactical awareness without which I believe we could be top of the table at present. I do, however, agree with many that I am not that sure who we would get in as a replacement that would do any better. Rafa makes the same mistakes, even SAF plays players in strange positions and Wenger still hasn't worked out that he needs a midfield enforcer. They are a frustrating bunch. Its just a good job that we are all far superior managers. Wouldn't you just love a crack at it and I'd only need £10k a week to accept the job! You make good points and tactically he isn't always right at all, but to say if tactically he weren't so stubborn we'd be top because don't forget we've picked up 7 points against Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City and that's not down to sheer luck! I thought the changes he made in the Blackburn game cost us the match. Apart from that I don't think tactically he's got too much wrong this year. Might say the Wigan game but none of the players seemed up for it, seemed a lack of belief, everyone that day was poor. Look at this season: - we had a great pre-season after Stan went off injured - turning around Atlante, beating Porto and Juventus - first game of the season he opens against Wigan with a 4-4-2 with Stan, who had just come back from injury, and a new 18 yo who will be very good I am sure. This was against a Wigan team playing 4-5-1 and with battlers aplenty. I felt sure from the kick off that we would get outmuscled in here and also how p'd off the CM that had got those victories in pre-season must have been. Any rhetoric about picking in form players was blown away by this selection. Again, no response at half time despite the problem being clear. - we then go away to Plop and perform admirably in a 4-5-1 followed by a comfortable home victory against Fulham with the same team. - in between he goes back to the team that got murdered by Wigan for the Rapid Vienna game. They do okay to get to 2-0 but it is clear that CM is starting to get overrun. Why no change - either fresh legs or 4-5-1? - he does okay away at Blues although NRC wouldn't have been the one that I subbed, but that's just personal preference. - we are then poor against Pompey with a 4-4-2 but manage to scrape a win due to a rash tackle by Belhadj and a bit of excellence from Gab - ditto Cardiff where we scrape a win - we are then away to Blackburn and put in a generally lacklustre performance with the 4-4-2. Again, his only sub is JC for EH. What about trying JC for NRC or FD to get hold of the ball in the middle? We know we can do well with the 4-5-1 away from home and JC is certainly not playing well enough to say we would be mad to leave him out? - against Citeh we do well to get our noses in front but they bring on Ireland who starts to dominate the game and MON fails to respond to nullify this. - nearly similar experience against Chelski where, but for poor finishing from Deco and Anelka, we could have drawn/lost a game we deserved to win but MON will not shore up that CM area. - for the Wolves game he goes away with the same side/set up that was so poor against Blackburn and they put in a similar performance with the only tactical change MON can make being the subbing of JC for Emile. I feel that there are a lot of points lost here where he could have responded to our performances and opponents initiatives more positively. I feel MON is too one dimensional and we are suffering as a result and the guys on the bench/in the squad must be going crazy. I am not looking for wholesale changes. I certainly wouldn't be look to change around a back 4, for example, that has really come together. It is minor tweaks: - 4-5-1 or minimum 4-4-2 with NRC in there against aggressive teams like Wigan and Blackburn that are gonna chase you down and not try to play football initially - subtler use of JC, say as an impact sub as against Blues, particularly given his poor form of late - changing the CM for the last 20 mins when we are starting to get overrun and Stan is tiring (I don't think even the most ardent Stan fan can disagree that he does, even if they will argue that he is having to do the work of two CM's hence he tires) and either subbing one of the two or switching to a 4-5-1 I just don't see any ideas coming from MON. I would prefer him to try something and maybe come a cropper occasionally than stick to the 4-4-2 with Emile for JC in the last 20 which I don't think necessarily works anyway? I agree with this post in it's entirety. If we can see it why can't MON? Because there's more to tactics than just formations. As an experienced ex professional and also a highly rated pundit here in Sweden once said: "Formations is just a game of numbers for the fans. Gives them something to debate. In the real game it really doesn't matter as you still have 11 players on the field." And I also think that mr Clough himself once said something like that. I just say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulanddonya Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 And Ossie Ardiles shows different ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 27, 2009 Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2009 ...Blandy, has his view, like you, but see anything different as a Martin out campaign....There surely has to be times, when you can have decent debate about our short comings without having to defend yourself as some radical subversive hell bent on bringing down a great institution. The first bit is complete garbage - to say I see anything different to my own view as an "MO'N out campaign" is laughable. Of the (few) people coherently trying to explain why they think MO'N should go, the most persuasive argument seems to be "He's taken us as afar as he can, he's spent a lot of money on players that aren't of the standard required and we're no nearer the top 4 than we were a couple of years ago" (to paraphrase). This basically boils down to saying "my prediction of the future is that Villa will not improve, my opinion is not enough of the players are right for the side and my preference is for some (un-named) other manager to take over". They say football's all about opinions, and as ever everyone is entitled to theirs. Personally the kind of argument made either like the one I paraphrased, or the less eloquent ones such as "he's a clueless idiot" are not exactly persuasive in making me think "hold on, you know what, I'm wrong in thinking he's doing a good job, overall, in the circumstances, it would be well worth disrupting the club and the stabilitiy of the place because changing the manager for (whoever) would clearly bring greater performances and rewards." There seems to be an almost wilful denial of the positives, a lack of recognition of the vagaries of dealing with human beings - players, agents, managers, opponents and the various changes in short term fortunes this can bring about. I can see flaws in the team, the way we sometimes play, there are always things, like I said earlier, that need to be worked at and improved upon, from Cup results, to midfield control and creativity and so on, but equally I can see areas where improvement has been made, I can see the continuing good effect MO'N is having on the development of the the Club and the team and for me it is a clear indicator that MO'N deserves my support and respect (for what little that is worth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDuck Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Nicely put, couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's_your_round Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Just thought I would interject here, IMO you hear a lot more people wanting Mon to go down at the actual ground than you read on this forum. Obviously its hard for me to gauge an accurate opinion of a ground that holds over 40,000 people, however I'm never too far from a group of strong opinions and you dont hear much good said about him. I'm sure its more alcohol fuelled than anything mind. It was the same at the Wolves game, i didn't hear his name sung once or anyone say anything good about him. All i could hear were people moaning about him, his tactics, the football and screaming for him to make a change. Also out of everyone i go to the game with there are maybe one or two who are happy with him and like him. There are more than just a few fans on the internet who don't like him very much, the majority on here are happy clappers aswell so they're always going to say stay because they never take their claret and blue tinted specs off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 There are more than just a few fans on the internet who don't like him very much, the majority on here are happy clappers aswell so they're always going to say stay because they never take their claret and blue tinted specs off. How ironic, words escape me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sled Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Well if words escape you why post anything? 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 27, 2009 Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2009 ...I think I've earned the right to see Barcelona and AC Milan down Villa Park I don't - for 2 reasons 1. There is not now, nor will there ever be any "right" or entitlement to see Barcelona or AC Milan at Villa Park. 2. Even if there were such a "right" it would be something the players and manager would have to earn, not something that you (or I) could influence or be entitled to on the basis of having seen Villa play Peterborough, Barnsley or whoever. I also feel that if I was to have a sense of entitlement to see us be competing against Barcelona et al, that I would be in a state of almost permanent disgruntlement because I was being "denied" my (self percieved) "right". To have it as a wish, or a dream, or an ambition - well that's different. Because for example it is closer now to being possible than it was 3 years ago. On that basis there is optimism, rather than disgruntlement. A much happier state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steell Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 As I have said before, I think the next 6 weeks in MON's reign is the most important of his career at Villa. Yes - we have done well up to now, and he has taken us from relegation fodder to European fodder. The argument is, given the support both financially, and being allowed to do it "his" way - could another manager have done the same / better - some say yes , some say no. This season we are about where we should be- Liverpool / Chelsea - better than expected results Man C / Fulham / Pompey / Blues - expected results Wigan / Blackburn / Wolves - worse than expected results. About even. However, the next six weeks will see it go one way or the other - and especially the next seven days. Beat Sunderlalast and Everton and West Ham - we are in the last 16 of the cup and somewhere around 3rd - obviously I and everyone will be ecstatic , and will say "Carry on Martin - you are doing grand" However, lose those three and we are around 12th, out of two cups and facing a struggle - it will be very different. The main worry for me, is the same worries we have now, are the same we had three years ago. Even then, we beat Chelsea, and drew at Arsenal etc... but then ruined it against the likes of Wigan, West Brom etc.. and three years on we have Richard Dunne saying the same thing - why can't MOn motivate his players against weaker opposition - it's got to be asked, and asked by the board - because until they come up with the answer - you can forget moving forward. I don't know whether anyone seen Goals on Sunday - but even Steve Stone mentioned the "Juninho moment" - the time when we had one chance and blew it. Personally, I think time repeated itself in January and that's it. Believe me, nothing would give me greater pleasure than being wrong and we do progress, I have spent 10's of thousands of pounds watching Villa against the likes of Peterborough, Bradford and Barnsley - I think I've earned the right to see Barcelona and AC Milan down Villa Park - unfortunately - I just can't see it happening under O'Neill. Allerdyce , Moyes, O'Neill , Hodgson , Bruce , and Zola - given the resources, I would back any of them to get a club top 6. I wouldn't back any of them to move a club into the top 4 - it's a different breed of manager. To me, only Redknapp may be able to do it from this country. Not now, not next year, but maybe the year after, Villa will need to I dont want O'Neill to go now, I don't even want him to go next year - as I think he deserves a crack at trying. But I bet my bottom dollar we will be in the same position come 2011 and things will change. My opinion. Sorry but that's a rather odd comment IMO. Either he can continue to improve us as a team and therefore should stay, or he can't and then he should go. You can't state that we'll be no better off in two years time right after saying that you don't want him to go. I want him to stay because I think he'll continue to improve us, nobody should be happy to settle for just more of the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 There surely has to be times, when you can have decent debate about our short comings without having to defend yourself as some radical subversive hell bent on bringing down a great institution. Surely the time to discuss the manager going and all our problems is when things are going badly and we aren't meeting expectations. At the moment we are a bit inconsistent like most teams in the prem and certainly like all the teams we will be challenging a top 4 spot with. You seem to want to talk about our short comings after every single game regardless of the performance or the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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