tonyh29 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I do remember Blair backing down to the french because they were kicking off our farmers were getting such large subsidies were they not Not as such , the French CAP rebate is 22% of total funds compared to the UK's 9% ... Blair wanted something for the the headlines during his presidency of the EU meeting thingy and after offering to reduce our rebate if the French did , he finally agreed to give up the rebate in exchange for a French promise that they would kindly possibly consider looking at it again some time in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Have Labour lost seats to the BNP? Thats about as funny as the holocaust. Labour should be ashamed of themselves, taking their party and its supporters so far to the right on the political scale that its makes the transition from Labour to BNP such an easy one for working class fucktards to make I agree, it was more amusing that Labour have dropped so low, not that the BNP actually have some power which is worrying. Was it not that the BNP had actually done anything, more that people didn't vote for Labour thus making anyone standing with them gain seats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The BNP are left wing extremists and not right wing at all. The racism issue doesn't associate them with either the left or right of politics. Edit: Have a scan at the BNP manifesto, it wants nationalisation, subsidy, higher taxes, protectionism and the abolition of the monarchy. Pure left wing ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 8, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted June 8, 2009 Well, after having let it sink in, I'm still ashamed to be British. Racist, fascist, holocaust deniers now in part represent this nation to Europe. It's disgusting. All because people wouldn't vote, or chose to 'protest vote' (I ain't falling for that one chaps, you voted for them, you're scum). I suppose it's a shame that the Lib Dems are so pro-Europe, I think they might have done better had that not been such a key part of their policy, and if they'd really gone for it more. Still, we get UKIP and, on a slightly less sour note, the Tories. We can't draw any hard and fast conclusions from this for a general election, but on that showing even with greater turn out I think Labour might be struggling. A lot of their traditional support seems to have chosen not to vote in the main, but the massive gains on the part of the Tories might just prove too much were they to be repeated in a general election imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 8, 2009 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2009 The BNP are left wing extremists and not right wing at all. The racism issue doesn't associate them with either the left or right of politics. No they aren't on the soci-economic scale they are fairly central, slightly to the left of Labour and the Tories, to the right of the Liberal Party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 8, 2009 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2009 Was it not that the BNP had actually done anything, more that people didn't vote for Labour thus making anyone standing with them gain seats? They increased their vote from 808,000 t0 943,000 Jez, that is more than worrying and the blame rests firmly at Labours door Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Was it not that the BNP had actually done anything, more that people didn't vote for Labour thus making anyone standing with them gain seats? They increased their vote from 808,000 t0 943,000 Jez, that is more than worrying and the blame rests firmly at Labours door Oh i see, i only saw it passing on the new; dont have a clue about politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The BNP are left wing extremists and not right wing at all. The racism issue doesn't associate them with either the left or right of politics. No they aren't on the soci-economic scale they are fairly central, slightly to the left of Labour and the Tories, to the right of the Liberal Party Not arguing for the sake of it Bicks but from the Labour supporting New Statesman: Public anxiety about immigration may have helped fuel the BNP’s rise, but the party is about more than racism and xenophobia. Under the leadership of Nick Griffin, it has worked hard to develop a full manifesto of policies – a strategy that it hopes will pay dividends by improving its image and broadening its appeal. But who exactly is the party appealing to? A brief skim through BNP manifesto literature brings to light proposals for the following: large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries. Under Griffin, the modern-day far right has positioned itself to the left of Labour. Is the strategy working? They really are lefties but with hardcore racism thrown in. That's why they've taken their support from Labour voters not Conservatives, who mainly went to UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Another open question for Lib Dem voters: Most LD's want a system of proportional representation to replace first past the post in General Elections, but it is PR that has led to the election of two BNP candidates. Has this changed your view on whether we should have PR more widely and if so why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 8, 2009 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2009 Jon, I agree they are to the left of Labour, it puts them in the centre, like I said. For some reason people can't see to get the notion that Labour are a left Wing party out of their head, they aren't they are more right wing than the Tories at the minute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarry Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 They really are lefties but with hardcore racism thrown in. That's why they've taken their support from Labour voters not Conservatives, who mainly went to UKIP. I see what you mean, but I find it hard to believe Labour voters would vote for a racist party. I've always held being a lefty as fundamentally non-racist. It's a confusing world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Jon, I agree they are to the left of Labour, it puts them in the centre, like I said. For some reason people can't see to get the notion that Labour are a left Wing party out of their head, they aren't they are more right wing than the Tories at the minute Fair enough. I guess the terms of reference are pretty subjective and depend on where you take your starting point. The "centre" doesn't appear to be where it used to be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 They really are lefties but with hardcore racism thrown in. That's why they've taken their support from Labour voters not Conservatives, who mainly went to UKIP. I see what you mean, but I find it hard to believe Labour voters would vote for a racist party. I've always held being a lefty as fundamentally non-racist. It's a confusing world. Indeed, but that's what the analysts are saying today and no doubt it will be disected in painful detail as the country searches it's conscience. FWIW I don't think many of those 'switchers' have done so due to racism. Fundamentally people vote for the party they think will best represent their personal interests. Workers have traditionally voted Labour for that very reason, not really because of deeply held ideological preference - although it's easy to confuse the two when things are as you would wish. Due to their policies Labour are now no longer viewed as the best option to represent the interests of all these former Labour voters which is why we've seen the switch (combined with protest votes) to the BNP. Rightly or wrongly the BNP are pushing peoples buttons but are only able to do so because they are operating in a vacuum left by the main parties. A decade of perceived political correctness and refusal to address issues Britsh people are genuinely concerned about (immigration and the EU) has meant a cosy but unrepresentative cabal of politicians have sailed blithely on occasionally shouting "Racist!" at any who may disagree. That bubble burst last night. The public have a voice and are (imo) putting UK Plc on notice to get a grip and do it quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 regaridng thos statistics, worth a read: http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/?p=2230 Yes, I saw that article on Liberal Conspiracy last week. Very good piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undesirable Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I felt a mix of nausea, anger and dispondency when i saw that Brons chap get elected to the EU parliament, then i woke up to hear that that poor excuse for a human being Griffin had been elected too. It's sad because there obviously aren't that many racists and fascists in the country to warrant them getting 900,000 odd votes. Obviously a lot of people have voted for them as a "protest vote" or simply without knowing who they are, who their leader is and what they represent and now they access to EU funds and two fascists in the EU parliament and have become by far Britain's biggest fascist party ever. I think their rise is largely down to the disappearance of working class politics over the last 20 years, since thatcher crushed the unions and Blair continued the tories anti-working class politics there seems to have been a shift towards identity politics which is linked to the ideology of multi-culturalism. Despite posing as ardent opponents of this ideology the BNP have actually embraced it, they've claimed to be representatives of "white" britain, as if the colour of someones skin or the country on their passport defines their interests as a person or their social class. Without a move back towards class politics, an closing of the inequality gap between rich and poor, an improvement in the NHS and social housing and greater cooperation between british and migrant workers i can only see the fascists getting stronger. To think that Griffin has done something that Moseley couldn't do and that the British public today is more gulible today than they were in the 1930's is a sad indictment of our society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Another open question for Lib Dem voters: Most LD's want a system of proportional representation to replace first past the post in General Elections, but it is PR that has led to the election of two BNP candidates. Has this changed your view on whether we should have PR more widely and if so why? Whilst not a Lib Dem voter, I am not a fan of FPTP systems. There is always a danger with PR systems that extremists will get a representation which they would not get under a FPTP system but I think that is a poor justification/defence for a system that intentionally disenfraNchises swathes of the electorate. For what it's worth, I think the system used for the European elections is not terribly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Whilst not a Lib Dem voter, :shock: if you were any more woolly you would baa and be chased around fields by Welshmen :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Whilst not a Lib Dem voter, :shock: if you were any more woolly you would baa and be chased around fields by Welshmen :-) Woolly I may be but I'm no voter (let alone a Lib Dem one). Anyway, they'd be far too free market for my tastes. p.s. I have been chased around fields by Welshmen but that involved carrying a rugby ball. :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 8, 2009 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2009 Less of the Sheepist comments please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 8, 2009 Moderator Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think the PR thing is far preferable to the FPTP system. I also don't see why there's a need (particularly amongst politicians) to "blame" anyone/someone for the BNP getting 2 people elected. Yes the BNP are odious scumbags, and no I'd never ever vote for them, and yes I went and voted last week as much to try and stop them getting in as for any enthusiam for any other particular party, BUT, the results overall mean that more people get their democratic wishes represented than would be the case under FPTP. Greens, UKIPs, Independents and so on. This is a good thing, on balance. I would guess their vote is made up of genuine racists, people hostile to foreigners ands people who are neither racist or anti foreigner, but are not aware of what lies under the veneer of respectability they (BNP) try to shroud themselves with. Maybe the media will in due course inform people rather better - at the moment all we get is stories about how bad it is they might get in/did get in, but not WHY it's bad. If people see them subjected to the same scrutiny and standards other parties are subjected to in the likes of the Sun and the Mail and so on, then the results of that scrutiny will no doubt put the hoodwinked off them in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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