Bollitics: Local & Euro Elections 2009

[sled]

I love immigrants.......I AM one

So what rarse clart? :wink:

[Undesirable]

'Fascism doesn't start with concentration camps - that's where it ends'

NO PASARAN!

I'll drink to that!

No Platform!

[peterms]

The BNP are left wing extremists and not right wing at all. The racism issue doesn't associate them with either the left or right of politics.

No they aren't on the soci-economic scale they are fairly central, slightly to the left of Labour and the Tories, to the right of the Liberal Party

Not arguing for the sake of it Bicks but from the Labour supporting New Statesman:

Public anxiety about immigration may have helped fuel the BNP’s rise, but the party is about more than racism and xenophobia. Under the leadership of Nick Griffin, it has worked hard to develop a full manifesto of policies – a strategy that it hopes will pay dividends by improving its image and broadening its appeal. But who exactly is the party appealing to? A brief skim through BNP manifesto literature brings to light proposals for the following: large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries. Under Griffin, the modern-day far right has positioned itself to the left of Labour. Is the strategy working?

They really are lefties but with hardcore racism thrown in. That's why they've taken their support from Labour voters not Conservatives, who mainly went to UKIP.

The BNP are not left wing.

You seem to have taken a comment from an article (that in respect of the policies listed, the BNP position is further left than the current LP position) and built a wobbly edifice of extrapolation.

BNP economic policies draw from the left, right and centre. If there's a common thread, it's that they tend to be populist.

But what sets them apart from other parties, what is really distinctive about them, is the large degree of authoritarianism combined with socially, and especially racially, reactionary policies. The rest of the policies tend to be there as an afterthought - in fact the section you quote comments that Griffin has drawn up a wider range of policies than they usually have - and to draw in support from disaffected voters who can excuse themselves by claiming it was really this or that policy, rather than what is wholly distinctive about the BNP, that drew their vote.

Authoritarianism can feature in both left and right parties. But you will find that the combination of racism, populism and authoritarianism is a hallmark of fascist parties, generally thought of as right rather than left, to the extent that this particular spectrum makes much sense when discussing this sort of set of policies.

[snowychap]

The BNP are not left wing.

You seem to have taken a comment from an article (that in respect of the policies listed, the BNP position is further left than the current LP position) and built a wobbly edifice of extrapolation.

BNP economic policies draw from the left, right and centre. If there's a common thread, it's that they tend to be populist.

But what sets them apart from other parties, what is really distinctive about them, is the large degree of authoritarianism combined with socially, and especially racially, reactionary policies. The rest of the policies tend to be there as an afterthought - in fact the section you quote comments that Griffin has drawn up a wider range of policies than they usually have - and to draw in support from disaffected voters who can excuse themselves by claiming it was really this or that policy, rather than what is wholly distinctive about the BNP, that drew their vote.

Authoritarianism can feature in both left and right parties. But you will find that the combination of racism, populism and authoritarianism is a hallmark of fascist parties, generally thought of as right rather than left, to the extent that this particular spectrum makes much sense when discussing this sort of set of policies.

You seem to have taken the stances of authoritarianism, populism and racism as the basis for determining whether an ideology is either left wing or right wing.

It appears that you have concluded that the labelling of a political movement has little to do with their economic policies and the social policies which stem directly from this origin.

Regardless of the position of the BNP on the political horizon, I think your analysis of where authoritarianism, populism and racism sits in the political spectrum is unusually ill-founded.

Each of these awful traits is not the sole preserve of any wing of politics. They are the preserve of those with a disdain of politics shown in the nature of all those political movements which seek to exclude others.

[PompeyVillan]

That UKIP ladyboy is scary. 'You're all facists!'

[villa4europe]

hahaha i was just about to come here and say the same thing, i thought she was a man

ive got visions of here with a crew cut saying "if he dies, he dies" in a thick russian accent

[villa4europe]

3 pinter?

[peterms]

You seem to have taken the stances of authoritarianism, populism and racism as the basis for determining whether an ideology is either left wing or right wing.

BNP economic policies draw from the left, right and centre. If there's a common thread, it's that they tend to be populist...

Authoritarianism can feature in both left and right parties.

Each of these awful traits is not the sole preserve of any wing of politics...

That's rather what I said with regard to authoritarianism and populism, isn't it? But racism tends to be more associated with the right, don't you find?

[snowychap]

That's rather what I said with regard to authoritarianism and populism, isn't it? But racism tends to be more associated with the right, don't you find?

Actually, no, Peter.

I think racism is something which stands independent both of economic and social 'wings'.

The combination resulting in a fascist conglomerate would, naturally, tend towards the right - I think that you are arguing a position solely becuase of your own political position.

My point is that authoritarianism is not the preseve of the right; nor is racism; nor is populism.

Your argument that it 'tends to be more associated with' doesn't really help the situations where people and the electorate need to be more analytical of the electoral position presented to them.

[peterms]

That's rather what I said with regard to authoritarianism and populism, isn't it? But racism tends to be more associated with the right, don't you find?

Actually, no, Peter.

I think racism is something which stands independent both of economic and social 'wings'.

The combination resulting in a fascist conglomerate would, naturally, tend towards the right - I think that you are arguing a position solely becuase of your own political position.

My point is that authoritarianism is not the preseve of the right; nor is racism; nor is populism.

Your argument that it 'tends to be more associated with' doesn't really help the situations where people and the electorate need to be more analytical of the electoral position presented to them.

Oh dear. I really feel like I've been put in a box here. I specifically stated that authoritarianism and populism are not the province of either left or right, and I think you perceive I've said the opposite, because you perceive me to have a particular political position which you associate with the view you think I must have.

[El Zen]

The BNP are not left wing.

You seem to have taken a comment from an article (that in respect of the policies listed, the BNP position is further left than the current LP position) and built a wobbly edifice of extrapolation.

BNP economic policies draw from the left, right and centre. If there's a common thread, it's that they tend to be populist.

But what sets them apart from other parties, what is really distinctive about them, is the large degree of authoritarianism combined with socially, and especially racially, reactionary policies. The rest of the policies tend to be there as an afterthought - in fact the section you quote comments that Griffin has drawn up a wider range of policies than they usually have - and to draw in support from disaffected voters who can excuse themselves by claiming it was really this or that policy, rather than what is wholly distinctive about the BNP, that drew their vote.

Authoritarianism can feature in both left and right parties. But you will find that the combination of racism, populism and authoritarianism is a hallmark of fascist parties, generally thought of as right rather than left, to the extent that this particular spectrum makes much sense when discussing this sort of set of policies.

You seem to have taken the stances of authoritarianism, populism and racism as the basis for determining whether an ideology is either left wing or right wing.

It appears that you have concluded that the labelling of a political movement has little to do with their economic policies and the social policies which stem directly from this origin.

Regardless of the position of the BNP on the political horizon, I think your analysis of where authoritarianism, populism and racism sits in the political spectrum is unusually ill-founded.

Each of these awful traits is not the sole preserve of any wing of politics. They are the preserve of those with a disdain of politics shown in the nature of all those political movements which seek to exclude others.

In comparative politics literature, the xenophobic welfare chauvinist parties - best represented perhaps by the 'Progress' parties of Norway and Denmark and with the (albeit far more extreme) BNP as its British representative - have been labelled 'the new right'.

I can see your point in that you shouldn't just accept the face value of placing authoritarian parties to the far right. Analysing the history of the left/right dichotomy, though, the political right was originally exactly that. Authoritarian. Whereas the political left was liberal (libertarian). With the introduction of an economic divide, the political right and left adopted an economic position that correlated quite perfectly with what became the now traditional meaning of the left/right divide. With time, the socially liberal/anti-state/laissez faire ideologies and more famously Sovjet communism/stalinism blurred the picture quite significantly. Many have argued that any talk of a political left and right is futile (and they do have a point).

In Western European/Anglo-American literature, the combination of authoritarianism, xenophobia and welfare populism is almost exclusively placed to the far right on the spectrum, though. And if we are to use the left/right dichotomy, I'm inclined to agree with the literature and I'd certainly place the BNP to the far right.

[snowychap]

Oh dear. I really feel like I've been put in a box here. I specifically stated that authoritarianism and populism are not the province of either left or right, and I think you perceive I've said the opposite, because you perceive me to have a particular political position which you associate with the view you think I must have.

I have not put you in any box, Peter.

[snowychap]

In Western European/Anglo-American literature, the combination of authoritarianism, xenophobia and welfare populism is almost exclusively placed to the far right on the spectrum, though. And if we are to use the left/right dichotomy, I'm inclined to agree with the literature and I'd certainly place the BNP to the far right.

Why?

Is there no space for degree in any of this unimaginative parcelling of political thought?

They're racist xenophobes, first and foremost.

The fact that they believe in welfare extension is a poor second.

As far as being authoritarian - why are they authoritarian? Is it just because racists are seen naturally as authoritarian?

[VBS*]

BNP=Racist

They target scummy ignorant, uneducated white people.. or even normal white ppl that feel hard done by society and want to rebel by voting for the BNP.The purpose of BNP is to segregate our society by using race & religion as a tool. BNP use ethnics as a scapegoat for the problems this country face..

BNP are full of racist tbh

the founder of BNP John Tyndall is on the left

the photo says it all tbh

[Condimentalist]

We all knew Labour would get trounced here, but what an awful result for the Lib Dems. I really thought they might gain some ground, but instead it seems as thought the country has just lurched to the right.

[djdabush]

And here's a bit of literature about our new MEP from his NF days

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

why the **** are people voting for the BNP. However shit any other party is.

[VBS*]

why the **** are people voting for the B'N'P. However shit any other party is.

because they are uneducated,ignorant,racist,scummy,naive people..

[El Zen]

In Western European/Anglo-American literature, the combination of authoritarianism, xenophobia and welfare populism is almost exclusively placed to the far right on the spectrum, though. And if we are to use the left/right dichotomy, I'm inclined to agree with the literature and I'd certainly place the BNP to the far right.

Why?

Is there no space for degree in any of this unimaginative parcelling of political thought?

They're racist xenophobes, first and foremost.

The fact that they believe in welfare extension is a poor second.

As far as being authoritarian - why are they authoritarian? Is it just because racists are seen naturally as authoritarian?

I don't really know what you're trying to prove, Daz.

But anyway; I've just said I think there's good reason to drop the whole left/right dichotomy all together, so I actually think we generally agree. Not that I would go out of my way to try and prove someone wrong if they said the BNP are right-wing. In the popular understanding of the word, they clearly are. What I did say is that if we were to use left/right terms, then the history of the dichotomy implies that authoritarianism is a trait of the right. To further eloborate on that, the very specific origin of the terms is the French dispute over equal political rights versus the King's and clergy's power over the masses. As I'm sure you know, by the way, I wouldn't want this to come across as a history lesson. I know my points could be disputed, with the case of stalinism as a classic example of face value-leftism gone perversly authoritarian and outright fascist. Hitler is another example of the problems of 'left' and 'right' - for all his statist economic policies few would argue he was left-wing. And all the more reason to stop using the 'left' and 'right' lables imo. They don't really tell us much after all, and perhaps they haven't since the 19th century, and if we could use more substancial terms and lables we'd come a lot further.

I wouldn't say WE/A-A comparative politics literature is 'unimaginative parcelling of political thought, though,' if that's what you were saying. Most of it is very solid work indeed. The problems of the left/right dichotomy have by many been discussed in detail, and the 'new right' is only placed on the far right because of the traditional popular understanding of racism/xenophobia and authoritarianism as right-wing phenomena. The welfare populism of the 'new right' parties is indeed a point used by many in their criticism of the left/right dichotomy.

Why are the BNP authoritarian? Well, I'll have to admit to not knowing the details of their manifesto but I'd hazard a guess that their views on crime and justice aren't exactly liberal? Though, neither are Labour's but as you're probably aware I don't exactly regard New Labour as particularily leftist either.

[leviramsey]

From Reason's Hit and Run

A few months ago on Hit & Run, I wondered why, despite a monumental opportunity afforded by the financial crisis, Europe's traditional parties of the left—specifically its mainstream socialist parties—were losing ground to populist, Euroskeptic, and traditional right-leaning parties. It's an oversimplification, to be sure, but Drudge's headline ("USA MOVES LEFT, EU GOES RIGHT") about sums up the results of Sunday's European elections. As noted by the Associated Press, "Right-leaning governments were ahead of the opposition in Germany, France, Italy and Belgium, while conservative opposition parties were leading in Britain and Spain." We can add to this incomplete list Sweden, Poland, the Netherlands, Austria, and Hungary, all of whom saw right-leaning parties either hold the line or increase in size. A few developments worth paying attention to:

* In the UK, Labour was trounced, managing a paltry 16 percent of the vote and increasing calls on Prime Minister Gordon Brown to resign and call early elections. The British National Party (BNP), a populist, anti-immigrant party, had its best showing ever, grabbing two seats in Brussels. BNP Obergruppenfuehrer Andrew Brons will represent Yorkshire and party boss Nick Griffin, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QolIvfQEw, will besmirch the reputation of northwest England. According to a report in The Guardian, Brons one explained, in a private letter to a supporter, that "on [the subject of burning synagogues] I have a dual view, in that I realise that he is well intentioned, I feel that our public image may suffer considerable damage as a result of these activities. I am however open to correction on this point."

The great libertarian MEP Dan Hannan makes a point worth repeating: The BNP is not a right-wing party, but a fascist party. It will be of no surprise to anyone who has read the party's manifesto that the BNP appropriated votes from Labour, not the Tories. As Hannan points out, in his victory speech Griffin shifted quickly from talk of immigration—everyone knows he isn't too fond of it—to the tub-thumping, rally-the-proles declaration that "his priority was to expose the way in which public assets had been privatised." To save you, dear reader, the trouble of digging up a ghastly manifesto written by a lumpy fascist, Hannan describes its contents: "t wants nationalisation, subsidy, higher taxes, protectionism and (sotto voce) the abolition of the monarchy." This is pretty de rigueur for nationalist, "far-right" parties in Europe. The German NPD, for instance, routinely denounces capitalism (specifically the "Anglo-American financial aristocracy") and has entertained a "Volksfront" with far-left anti-capitalist activists.

* Also making the front page of Drudge is the ascension of the Swedish file-sharing Pirate Party (PP) to Brussels, with 7.1 percent of the vote, enough to guarantee a single seat. Not mentioned in the English language accounts of their victory is the party's strong libertarian streak. Party leader Rick Falkvinge told the Stockholm daily SvD, in reference to a recent proposal that would massively expand the state's ability to monitor electronic communications, that "We don't accept the state's wiretapping. People should understand that the [state] is not always on the side of good." Perhaps an obvious point, but a sentiment just short of revolutionary in Swedish politics. Even more contronversial was Falkvinge's declaration, in an interview with the magazine Fokus, that he considers himself "an ultra-capitalist," a sentiment so alarming that state television believed it worthy of top billing on its website.

Taken from a comment to that article: