Marka Ragnos Posted February 13 VT Supporter Share Posted February 13 (edited) With compliments to @maqroll's The History Thread on VT, this thread is for anyone who likes to wonder and argue about what ifs in notable or not-so-notable past events. It need not be kings and emperors -- alternate social and scientific history talk is welcome here, too. What if the tsetse fly never existed? What if William had failed in Hastings? What if Napoleon had trounced Wellington? What if the Spanish flu of 1918 had been less lethal? What if women's suffrage had occurred one hundred years earlier in Britain? That sort of thing. Please feel free, too, to share links to cool alternate history books, films, TV shows, etc. This isn't meant to be only a place for talking about the Alternate History genre of sci-fi, but more strictly speaking, counterfactual history. Quote Counterfactual history (also virtual history) is a form of historiography that attempts to answer the What if? questions that arise from counterfactual conditions.[1] As a method of intellectual enquiry, counterfactual history explores history and historical incidents by extrapolating a timeline in which key historical events either did not occur or had an outcome different from the actual historical outcome. Counterfactual history seeks by "conjecturing on what did not happen, or what might have happened, in order to understand what did happen."[2] It has produced a literary genre which is variously called alternate history, speculative history, allohistory, and hypothetical history.[3][4] Edited February 13 by Marka Ragnos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted February 13 Author VT Supporter Share Posted February 13 (edited) I've been wondering particularly what might have happened had the Nazis successfully invaded Britain in 1939 or 1940. How would the British resistance have differed from other resistance movements? Where in the UK would collaborationists have been the most commonplace? As noxious as it sounds, I fear that the worst collaborationists would have been in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that Ireland itself would have eventually fallen to the Nazis. I think the Nazis would have nurtured sectarian and regional hatreds and found purchase among various non-English nationalists. Thinking aloud here ... Edited February 13 by Marka Ragnos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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chrisp65 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, Marka Ragnos said: I've been wondering particularly what might have happened had the Nazis successfully invaded Britain in 1939 or 1940. How would the British resistance have differed from other resistance movements? Where in the UK would collaborationists have been the most commonplace? As noxious as it sounds, I fear that the worst collaborationists would have been in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that Ireland itself would have eventually fallen to the Nazis. I think the Nazis would have nurtured sectarian and regional hatreds and found purchase among various non-English nationalists. Thinking aloud here ... Sir Oswald Mosley (Baronet) was part of the english establishment, supported by Lord Rothermere (The Daily Mail), and headed the British Fascists headquartered in London and estimated to have had tens of thousands of members. Three of Prince Philip’s sisters married nazis. Prince Edward toured Nazi Germany in 1937. I’m not convinced any particular nation would have more or less of a claim to Nazi sympathisers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 13 Moderator Share Posted February 13 26 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Prince Edward toured Nazi Germany in 1937 He was the abdicated King and Duke of Windsor at the time. He was also a bit more than a just a Nazi sympathiser, there are more than enough stories about him during the war. From him supposedly leaking the British plans for the defence of Belgium to the Nazis to meeting Roosevelt and appealing for him to broker peace rather than join the war. After the fall of France, he even appealed to the Germans to post guards on his French properties, which they actually did! Hitler was supposedly going reinstall him as king should he have successfully invaded Britain and were supposedly active in trying to persuade him to live in Germany when he was living in Portugal (because he'd fled France to there rather than you know… do it the same way as the BEF at Dunkirk) The real Edward was a proper Nazi story rarely gets told even now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Nazi stuff you can just watch man in the high Castle and see how it played out 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxstock92 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 seems an appropriate thread to share this. Ive watched Cody’s videos for a few years now, find them really interesting/entertaining. Has some interesting ideas for different historical events. Would highly recommend. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 13 Moderator Share Posted February 13 37 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m not convinced any particular nation would have more or less of a claim to Nazi sympathisers. I'm not convinced the Welsh or Scottish were anything less in favour of fighting the Nazis with everything they had than the English. I’ve never met a Welshman for my Granddads generation that were anything other than supportive of the war. My granddad wanted to join up to fight but was refused (reserved occupation - miner), his mate Jack Jones - former Everton footballer, same team as Dixie Dean, look him up, he just disappears from that team in 1937 having been a first team regular for a couple of seasons, was he injured? No, he went to join the International Brigade in Spain to fight Franco. I should also point out that my Granddad was a card carrying member of the Communist Party as were many in the South Wales valleys. I really do think you’d struggle to find many Nazi sympathisers in Wales in WW2. I have little personal knowledge of Scottish people of that generation but an awful lot of experience of the Welsh and I really can’t see any sympathy there at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted February 13 Author VT Supporter Share Posted February 13 54 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Three of Prince Philip’s sisters married nazis. Seriously? That's crazy. I know about some of the other establishment ties. But I feel this first layer of the establishment wouldn't really feed the rank and file street-level thugs. Remember nazification is also very socialist in how the nazis take over the means of production and direct industry and promise workers a paradise (while also using slave labour, too, and murdering trade unionist leaders). I guess I could see some anti-establishment workers getting seduced by all that, even in Wales, Scotland, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: I've been wondering particularly what might have happened had the Nazis successfully invaded Britain in 1939 or 1940. The real threat was the Nazis would invade neutral Ireland and use it as a stepping stone. Aberdovey beaches still have the defences we put in place to defend an invasion from Ireland. Pershore still has anti tank defences that are designed to defend an attack from Wales. A succesful Nazi invasion of Ireland leads to some interesting hypothetical dilemmas. Liverpool docks wouldn't last long. Could the RAF defend attacks from 3 sides? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 13 Moderator Share Posted February 13 7 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: Seriously? That's crazy. I know about some of the other establishment ties. But I feel this first layer of the establishment wouldn't really feed the rank and file street-level thugs. Remember nazification is also very socialist in how the nazis take over the means of production and direct industry and promise workers a paradise (while also using slave labour, too, and murdering trade unionist leaders). I guess I could see some anti-establishment workers getting seduced by all that, even in Wales, Scotland, etc. Look up the Battle of Cable Street, trade unionists and communists (and others) fighting against fascism. You'll see not only how high end establishment figures like Mosely controlled rank and file street level thugs but also how socialists and communists in the trade Union movement actively fought against fascism. Your theory is bunk. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 minute ago, Marka Ragnos said: Seriously? That's crazy. I know about some of the other establishment ties. But I feel this first layer of the establishment wouldn't really feed the rank and file street-level thugs. Remember nazification is also very socialist in how the nazis take over the means of production and direct industry and promise workers a paradise (while also using slave labour, too, and murdering trade unionist leaders). I guess I could see some anti-establishment workers getting seduced by all that, even in Wales, Scotland, etc. I think maybe there is an issue with lazy labelling and then guilt by association (I’m not saying by you, I mean across time). Many that want a separation would be described as nationalist, and nationalist has an obvious link to right wing. It was certainly used as a very effective slur for years, to dissuade support for the likes of Plaid or the SNP, parties born in the 20’s and 30’s. As Bicks has said up page, there’s plenty of evidence across the UK of anti Nazi sentiment outweighing any pro Nazi sentiment, or ‘hope’ that allying with Germany could lead to independence. I’m sure those people were out there, but in no greater numbers in Glasgow, Wrexham, Derry, or Exeter. For street level thugs, as I mentioned previously, their leader was very much a toff. Cable Street suggests an ability to street fight doesn’t automatically make someone lean in to fascism. For reference, you could look to the main rabble rousers out there today, for every Tommy, there’s a Toff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 20 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: Seriously? That's crazy. I know about some of the other establishment ties. But I feel this first layer of the establishment wouldn't really feed the rank and file street-level thugs. Remember nazification is also very socialist in how the nazis take over the means of production and direct industry and promise workers a paradise (while also using slave labour, too, and murdering trade unionist leaders). I guess I could see some anti-establishment workers getting seduced by all that, even in Wales, Scotland, etc. tbf they married German Princes , who became Nazi's later ... possibly out of self preservation , who knows One of them was dismissed from the army for a plot against Hitler , 2 of the others died in plane crashes , one in 37 and one in 43 , I guess skyscrapers had better fitted windows back then so people couldn't' fall out of them , the 4th sister also married a German prince but he wasn't believed to have joined the Nazi party , though interestingly they weren't invited to his wedding to Liz regardless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Loxstock92 said: seems an appropriate thread to share this. Ive watched Cody’s videos for a few years now, find them really interesting/entertaining. Has some interesting ideas for different historical events. Would highly recommend. was it just me who sniggered at the " They can't lick our Dick" poster when it appeared on screen ? Edited February 13 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 A contribution from my other half: what if Henry VIII had a son by his first wife? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 33 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: Seriously? That's crazy. I know about some of the other establishment ties. But I feel this first layer of the establishment wouldn't really feed the rank and file street-level thugs. Remember nazification is also very socialist in how the nazis take over the means of production and direct industry and promise workers a paradise (while also using slave labour, too, and murdering trade unionist leaders). I guess I could see some anti-establishment workers getting seduced by all that, even in Wales, Scotland, etc. According to chat 3.5 Did Prince Phillip's sisters marry Nazi's? ChatGPT Yes, two of Prince Philip's sisters, Princess Margarita and Princess Theodora, married German aristocrats who were affiliated with the Nazi Party. Princess Margarita: She married Gottfried, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, in 1931. Although there is no evidence that Prince Gottfried himself was a member of the Nazi Party, he did serve in the German army during World War II. Princess Margarita and Prince Gottfried lived in Germany during much of the war. Princess Theodora: She married Berthold, Margrave of Baden, in 1931. Berthold was a member of the Nazi Party and served in the German army during World War II. Princess Theodora and Margrave Berthold also lived in Germany during much of the war. Prince Philip himself fought against the Axis powers during World War II as a naval officer in the British Royal Navy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said: I've been wondering particularly what might have happened had the Nazis successfully invaded Britain in 1939 or 1940. How would the British resistance have differed from other resistance movements? Where in the UK would collaborationists have been the most commonplace? As noxious as it sounds, I fear that the worst collaborationists would have been in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that Ireland itself would have eventually fallen to the Nazis. I think the Nazis would have nurtured sectarian and regional hatreds and found purchase among various non-English nationalists. Thinking aloud here ... I would not be here for a start on VT ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 32 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: The real threat was the Nazis would invade neutral Ireland and use it as a stepping stone. Aberdovey beaches still have the defences we put in place to defend an invasion from Ireland. Pershore still has anti tank defences that are designed to defend an attack from Wales. A succesful Nazi invasion of Ireland leads to some interesting hypothetical dilemmas. Liverpool docks wouldn't last long. Could the RAF defend attacks from 3 sides? Wouldn’t be surprised if Britain invaded Ireland first to pre-empt that. We actually had a plan to invade Norway and Sweden to stop the Germans getting it, but the Nazis launched their invasion first. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_R_4#:~:text=Plan R 4 was an,not carried out as designed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 26 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: According to chat 3.5 Did Prince Phillip's sisters marry Nazi's? ChatGPT Yes, two of Prince Philip's sisters, Princess Margarita and Princess Theodora, married German aristocrats who were affiliated with the Nazi Party. Princess Margarita: She married Gottfried, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, in 1931. Although there is no evidence that Prince Gottfried himself was a member of the Nazi Party, he did serve in the German army during World War II. Princess Margarita and Prince Gottfried lived in Germany during much of the war. Princess Theodora: She married Berthold, Margrave of Baden, in 1931. Berthold was a member of the Nazi Party and served in the German army during World War II. Princess Theodora and Margrave Berthold also lived in Germany during much of the war. Prince Philip himself fought against the Axis powers during World War II as a naval officer in the British Royal Navy. I suspect ChatGPT may be a little out on this. Or Town & Country Magazine is, and I know which I’d trust the most on royal gossip. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 13 Moderator Share Posted February 13 6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I suspect ChatGPT may be a little out on this. Or Town & Country Magazine is, and I know which I’d trust the most on royal gossip. VT can lead a man to some dark places. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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