The Alternate (Counterfactual) History Thread

[NurembergVillan]

3 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

As noxious as it sounds, I fear that the worst collaborationists would have been in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that Ireland itself would have eventually fallen to the Nazis.

Can't imagine the Aryan race being able to fathom the ginger hordes.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

56 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if Britain invaded Ireland first to pre-empt that. 

The UK had suffered a massive defeat in Dunkirk and was fighting the Germans and Italians in North Africa. 

Had the UK begun preparing an invasion of Ireland it could have prompted Ireland to simply join the Axis. 

 

[Panto_Villan]

23 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

The UK had suffered a massive defeat in Dunkirk and was fighting the Germans and Italians in North Africa. 

Had the UK begun preparing an invasion of Ireland it could have prompted Ireland to simply join the Axis. 

Hmmm. I suppose that depends how much Britain had telegraphed it. If we're talking hypotheticals, Ireland had no real air force or navy, and only had a small army with not many armoured vehicles or artillery. They could have called up more men if Britain was clearly preparing to invade, but there's only so much infantry can do on the battlefield without the hardware to back them up.

Given where Ireland is located, I'm not sure joining the Axis would have helped much in that situation. How would the Germans have been able to help them? The Royal Navy was still the biggest navy in the world at the time so sneaking ships past them with troops or supplies was always going to be a struggle, and I don't think the Luftwaffe alone would have been able to prevent a British invasion.

Edited February 13 by Panto_Villan

[Dante_Lockhart]

The VT history Multi-Verse

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Hmmm. I suppose that depends how much Britain had telegraphed it. If we're talking hypotheticals, Ireland had no real air force or navy, and only had a small army with not many armoured vehicles or artillery. They could have called up more men if Britain was clearly preparing to invade, but there's only so much infantry can do on the battlefield without the hardware to back them up.

Given where Ireland is located, I'm not sure joining the Axis would have helped much in that situation. How would the Germans have been able to help them? The Royal Navy was still the biggest navy in the world at the time so sneaking ships past them with troops or supplies was always going to be a struggle, and I don't think the Luftwaffe alone would have been able to prevent a British invasion.

I don’t think the Luftwaffe would have had the capability of getting fighter aircraft to Ireland would they, didn't the Me109 only have a range of about 400 miles?

[chrisp65]

Difficult to know how Irish militia would fare against the British Military before WWII.

Nothing to use as a metric.

[Marka Ragnos]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Look up the Battle of Cable Street, trade unionists and communists (and others) fighting against fascism. You'll see not only how high end establishment figures like Mosely controlled rank and file street level thugs but also how socialists and communists in the trade Union movement actively fought against fascism. Your theory is bunk.

That's a famous event. But it wouldn't have happened post-invasion, at least not in the same form. I'm not talking about voluntary supporters. In Nazi Germany, skilled labourers (not otherwise conscripted into war) were compelled to join the German Labour Front if they wanted a job. 

[Panto_Villan]

Just now, bickster said:

I don’t think the Luftwaffe would have had the capability of getting fighter aircraft to Ireland would they, didn't the Me109 only have a range of about 400 miles?

Yeah, that's a very good point. They'd have needed to send unescorted bombers, or they'd have been forced to try and use the Me110 as an escort fighter. I don't think either would have gone very well.

[Follyfoot]

5 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

With compliments to @maqroll's The History Thread on VT, this thread is for anyone who likes to wonder and argue about what ifs in notable or not-so-notable past events. It need not be kings and emperors -- alternate social and scientific history talk is welcome here, too.

What if the tsetse fly never existed?

What if William had failed in Hastings?

What if Napoleon had trounced Wellington?

What if the Spanish flu of 1918 had been less lethal?

What if women's suffrage had occurred one hundred years earlier in Britain?

That sort of thing.

Please feel free, too, to share links to cool alternate history books, films, TV shows, etc. This isn't meant to be only a place for talking about the Alternate History genre of sci-fi, but more strictly speaking, counterfactual history.

What would’ve happened if Jimmy Rimmer had not come off in the European cup final

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Even 10 U-boats in Irish waters could have done significant damage to any invasion fleet.  

At this point of the war we were figting the Axis in North Africa and the far east with limited success.  

Invading Ireland and then occupying it just wasn't feasible. Consider how much effort we put into defending the UK from the IRA when there wasn't a war on. 

Now image the IRA much, much bigger and armed with a plentiful array of weapons.  

 

 

Edited February 13 by Mandy Lifeboats
Added details

[Marka Ragnos]

Ah, I'm just eating this stuff up now ... love reading people's thinking about Irish-English-German war intrigues.  

 

51 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

The UK had suffered a massive defeat in Dunkirk and was fighting the Germans and Italians in North Africa. 

Had the UK begun preparing an invasion of Ireland it could have prompted Ireland to simply join the Axis. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Hmmm. I suppose that depends how much Britain had telegraphed it. If we're talking hypotheticals, Ireland had no real air force or navy, and only had a small army with not many armoured vehicles or artillery. They could have called up more men if Britain was clearly preparing to invade, but there's only so much infantry can do on the battlefield without the hardware to back them up.

Given where Ireland is located, I'm not sure joining the Axis would have helped much in that situation. How would the Germans have been able to help them? The Royal Navy was still the biggest navy in the world at the time so sneaking ships past them with troops or supplies was always going to be a struggle, and I don't think the Luftwaffe alone would have been able to prevent a British invasion.

 

19 minutes ago, bickster said:

I don’t think the Luftwaffe would have had the capability of getting fighter aircraft to Ireland would they, didn't the Me109 only have a range of about 400 miles?

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

It's slightly off topic but here's my favourite WW2 story regarding Ireland.  

Many British and German aircrew and sailors found themselves POW in Ireland.  They were treated very well and received their normal pay from their respective governments.   Their imprisonment was very relaxed and they were able to leave the camps if they made a written statement promising not to escape. 

A US pilot fighting with the RAF promised to escape but then escaped and returned to the UK.  This was unsporting and he was subsequently returned to Ireland. 

He made the best of things by taking up foxhunting. 

He was subsequently repatriated to the US just in time to join the US airforce for the rest of the war.  

 

[Marka Ragnos]

31 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

It's slightly off topic but here's my favourite WW2 story regarding Ireland.  

Many British and German aircrew and sailors found themselves POW in Ireland.  They were treated very well and received their normal pay from their respective governments.   Their imprisonment was very relaxed and they were able to leave the camps if they made a written statement promising not to escape. 

A US pilot fighting with the RAF promised to escape but then escaped and returned to the UK.  This was unsporting and he was subsequently returned to Ireland. 

He made the best of things by taking up foxhunting. 

He was subsequently repatriated to the US just in time to join the US airforce for the rest of the war.  

 

There must be some novels and TV scripts in all that. You've made me think of the generally very awkward situation of Ireland during the Second World War. There were, to say the least, some uncomfortably fine lines walked. But this probably belongs in the Ireland thread.

Quote

A phantom hangs over Ireland’s relations with Hitler’s Germany. Since Eamon de Valera’s visit to the Third Reich’s minister to Ireland on 2 May 1945, the spectre of pro-Nazism has dogged Ireland’s reputation. De Valera’s condolences on the suicide of the German head of state, Adolf Hitler, spawned immediate international condemnation. He gifted his critics all the ammunition that they desired to stigmatise Ireland.

 

Edited February 13 by Marka Ragnos

[Mandy Lifeboats]

The hilarity of being a POW in Ireland

Well worth a read 

Quote

The Most Bizarre POW Camp During WWII – Curragh

 

https://forthelifeofme-film.com/2019/07/30/the-most-bizarre-pow-camp-during-wwii-curragh/

Edited February 13 by Mandy Lifeboats
Added details

[chrisp65]

22 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

There must be some novels and TV scripts in all that. You've made me think of the generally very awkward situation of Ireland during the Second World War. There were, to say the least, some uncomfortably fine lines walked. But this probably belongs in the Ireland thread.

 

 

Didn’t England play Germany in 1938 and give Nazi salutes?

I’m really not sure any nation was much better at this stuff than anyone else.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Just to get this back onto topic.....

The link I posted above mentions that Churchill was worried that Ireland joining the Axis would give U-boats a massive advantage.  

 

[Marka Ragnos]

20 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Just to get this back onto topic.....

The link I posted above mentions that Churchill was worried that Ireland joining the Axis would give U-boats a massive advantage.  

 

And possibly prompted a land war on Ireland? Could have certainly changed the war. I can't imagine what America would do, too. A mess.  I recall in the 2020 film "Greyhound," the convoy leader's broken ship is sent to "Derry" for repairs -- using the silent "London" I guess to make it more palatable for very pro-republican Irish-American audiences. But it's obviously accurate that NI was already deeply enveloped in the war effort, and had the Republic gone Nazi -- yikes. It also saddens me to consider what might have been with Ireland's Jewish population. Wasn't Leopold Bloom in Ulysses Jewish? I also wonder if Ireland had gone Nazi, the Luftwaffe would gain essentially a new for base air attacks of all sorts and possibly an attack or invasion on Greenland or Newfoundland. 

Edited February 13 by Marka Ragnos

[Panto_Villan]

1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Even 10 U-boats in Irish waters could have done significant damage to any invasion fleet.  

At this point of the war we were figting the Axis in North Africa and the far east with limited success.  

Invading Ireland and then occupying it just wasn't feasible. Consider how much effort we put into defending the UK from the IRA when there wasn't a war on. 

Now image the IRA much, much bigger and armed with a plentiful array of weapons.  

Come on - if any German naval officer ordered 10 U-boats into the small and shallow Irish Sea to take on half the Royal Navy with the RAF overhead he'd probably be shot for treason.

At the end of the day you're talking about a country with 3m people, an agrarian economy and no real military forces or defence industry, vs one of the most powerful countries in the world with a population of 50m, a global empire to call on and a defence industry to match. There's absolutely no way Ireland would have been able to hold out for any length of time once the British navy had cut them off from any potential aid.

But even that's irrelevent. Turns out we already had the forces required to invade Ireland stationed in Northern Ireland in 1940 and (surprising nobody) we'd made a plan to invade Ireland if the Germans attacked. Sounds like it was done largely in co-operation with the Irish government but from reading the article it's implied we were going into Ireland to fight off any attacking Germans whether the Irish wanted us to or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W

However, because of the threat of German occupation and seizure of Ireland and especially the valuable Irish ports, Plan W was developed. Northern Ireland was to serve as the base of a new British Expeditionary Force that would move across the Irish border to repel the invaders from any beach-head established by German paratroopers. In addition, coordinated actions of the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy were planned to repel German air and sea invasion. According to a restricted file prepared by the British Army's "Q" Movements Transport Control in Belfast, the British would not have crossed the border "until invited to do so by the Irish Government,"[1] and it is not clear who would have had the operational authority over the British troops invited into the State by Éamon de Valera.[2] 

Edited February 13 by Panto_Villan

[MaVilla]

1) What would the world be like if the Roman Empire never fell?

2) What would be the worlds primary religions if Constantine didnt convert to Christianity, and accept/support Christianity as the/a primary Religion of the Empire (as before that, Christians were a fairly small religious sect, and they werent treated well at all).

3) What if Great Britain had won the GB/American war if independence?

 

Edited February 13 by MaVilla

[Marka Ragnos]

4 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Turns out we already had the forces required to invade Ireland stationed in Northern Ireland in 1940 and (surprising nobody) we'd made a plan to invade Ireland if the Germans attacked. Sounds like it was done largely in co-operation with the Irish government but from reading the article it's implied we were going into Ireland to fight off any attacking Germans whether the Irish wanted us to or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W

However, because of the threat of German occupation and seizure of Ireland and especially the valuable Irish ports, Plan W was developed. Northern Ireland was to serve as the base of a new British Expeditionary Force that would move across the Irish border to repel the invaders from any beach-head established by German paratroopers. In addition, coordinated actions of the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy were planned to repel German air and sea invasion. According to a restricted file prepared by the British Army's "Q" Movements Transport Control in Belfast, the British would not have crossed the border "until invited to do so by the Irish Government,"[1] and it is not clear who would have had the operational authority over the British troops invited into the State by Éamon de Valera.[2] 

Incredible. So fascinating.