Ireland: Politics and Society

[Marka Ragnos]

I was unable to find a topic that dealt with Irish politics at all. I also added the word "Society" to the topic because I'd hate to exclude some of the interesting social issues that intersect with Irish politics. I acknowledge my wholesale ignorance of the subject. I have an inkling of different ways in which the term "Ireland" might itself be contested, but for the purposes of this topic, I mean the island of Ireland and the politics and societies of that island and their peoples and diaspora.

Edited February 5 by Marka Ragnos

[Marka Ragnos]

The making of Michelle O'Neill -- an Irish nationalist -- as first minister of Northern Ireland seems notable, and definitely not something I would have envisioned twenty years ago.

Quote

“This is a historic day which represents a new dawn,” O’Neill said. “That such a day would ever come would have been unimaginable to my parents and grandparents’ generation. Because of the Good Friday Agreement that old state that they were born into is gone. A more democratic, more equal society has been created making this a better place for everyone.”

But that's why it's so interesting and surprising to me that dissident republicanism still seems to exist. Or does it?, Long after the Good Friday agreement, there are paramilitary groups. To my American eyes, these groups seems very similar to street gangs rather than political radicals. I guess I wonder if there's is really a political element to what these new groups are pursuing, or if they're almost wearing the garments of paramilitaries but more to strike fear in rivals or police services? On the other hand, I've met Americans who feel very strongly about a unified Ireland still -- even my wife is kind of like that. So I know the dream is still alive.

Quote

 

The term "dissident republicans" describes a range of individuals who do not accept the Good Friday Agreement - the 1998 peace deal which ended the worst of the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

The Provisional IRA - the main armed republican paramilitary group for most of the Troubles - declared a ceasefire in the run up to the agreement and officially ended its violent campaign in 2005.

Dissident republicanism is made up of various groups which broke away from the Provisional IRA in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, including the Continuity IRA and New IRA.

The groups are much smaller than the Provisional IRA, although they have access to high-calibre weapons and have used improvised explosive devices and mortars in attacks and attempted attacks.

They have continued to use violence to attempt to unite Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland in a single state but their activities have been sporadic and often undermined by the security services.

 

 

Edited February 5 by Marka Ragnos

[Stevo985]

I've been diving into Irish history recently.

Always a subject I've been interested in (given my ancestry) but found quite inaccessible given the complexity.

Now that I've found quite a few good sources it's opened it up to me.

 

Really fascinating stuff. I've focused mainly around the relationship with Britain/ the UK

 

Not sure if it quite fits into this topic but anyway

[Mark Albrighton]

I have (and watched) The Story of Ireland, a five part BBC four documentary by Fergal Keane giving an overview of the history. 

Despite having seen it, I still have the intention to watch it again just because of how intricate it is.

I would read about it, but I find I struggle where I’m left thinking “Wait, who is this fella we’re talking about?” and I need a picture to remind me who they’re on about.

[mjmooney]

Paramilitaries on both 'sides' have always had that organised crime/mafioso element (just as they do in the middle east). 

[MakemineVanilla]

As the old joke used go, you can always tell a Brummie because they'll have shamrock in their turban, and it has long been a mystery to me why there wasn't a a thread on the subject, especially as recent political and social issues have proven so controversial.

 

 

 

Edited February 5 by MakemineVanilla

[Mark Albrighton]

As an aside, and this is down to everyone’s least favourite Antipodean tv artist, I can’t look at the island of Ireland without thinking “koala bear”.

[chrisp65]

I have recently acquired a Northern Ireland branch of the family. As individuals they are all lovely and definitely add positively to our happy little group. They are visiting again in March and I’m very much looking forward to it.

As a group, as a close knit N.I. community, they are very much of the ilk that paint the kerbstones outside their houses red, white, and blue.

It’s fascinating. 

I’m yet to show them the picture of me with my face blanked out, under a Palestine / Che / Starry Plough flag.

[MakemineVanilla]

With certain exemptions: books, plays, musical compositions, paintings and sculptures, are exempt from income tax, in Ireland.

 

[Mr_Dogg]

9 hours ago, Marka Ragnos said:

The making of Michelle O'Neill -- an Irish nationalist -- as first minister of Northern Ireland seems notable, and definitely not something I would have envisioned twenty years ago.

But that's why it's so interesting and surprising to me that dissident republicanism still seems to exist. Or does it?, Long after the Good Friday agreement, there are paramilitary groups. To my American eyes, these groups seems very similar to street gangs rather than political radicals. I guess I wonder if there's is really a political element to what these new groups are pursuing, or if they're almost wearing the garments of paramilitaries but more to strike fear in rivals or police services? On the other hand, I've met Americans who feel very strongly about a unified Ireland still -- even my wife is kind of like that. So I know the dream is still alive.

 

You say the dream is still alive, that is the entire aim of Sinn Fein, with their first Minister. It is not pie in the sky dreaming, although it is a lot further away than they seem to accept.

[mjmooney]

I'm the son of an Irish Catholic father and an English Protestant mother. As I've said many times, I'm not a fan of nation states, flags, anthems, and tribalism generally. But perhaps that's an easier stance to take for someone born and raised in Britain, rather than Ireland. As with the middle east, I only wish the blood feuds could be set aside (big ask, I know). It really shouldn't matter what flag flies over the seat of government, so long as all citizens have equal opportunity, without regard to ethnicity, religion, 'culture', etc. As ever, education is key. Getting there is the problem. 

[Stevo985]

18 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I'm the son of an Irish Catholic father and an English Protestant mother. As I've said many times, I'm not a fan of nation states, flags, anthems, and tribalism generally. But perhaps that's an easier stance to take for someone born and raised in Britain, rather than Ireland. As with the middle east, I only wish the blood feuds could be set aside (big ask, I know). It really shouldn't matter what flag flies over the seat of government, so long as all citizens have equal opportunity, without regard to ethnicity, religion, 'culture', etc. As ever, education is key. Getting there is the problem. 

It's fascinating how that divide has come to pass in Ireland.

You could almost say it was down to geography more than religion initially. The religion part is almost coincidental for Ireland.

[choffer]

 

[The Fun Factory]

Would it still be true to say that Ireland is still predominantly a rural-based society, outside of Dublin?  I believe the population of the whole Island of Ireland is only just about to the levels it was before the famine of the 19th Century.

[Stevo985]

10 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Would it still be true to say that Ireland is still predominantly a rural-based society, outside of Dublin?  I believe the population of the whole Island of Ireland is only just about to the levels it was before the famine of the 19th Century.

It's not even close. Population pre-famine was almost 9 million. Population now is about 7 million (including Northern Ireland)

Edited February 5 by Stevo985

[Captain_Townsend]

I am Irish and I teach history.

Top tip it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the legacy of British colonialism - whether Ireland was a nation or whether it should be sub servient to Britain.

Religion was a wedge issue after the Plantation of Ulster and still is a synonym but it is more complex than that. At times, the orange card was played by the Tories with disastrous consequences. For example the 1880s, 1900s, 1910s. 

Wolfe Tone, Henry Grattan, Isaac Butt, C.S. Parnell, Douglas Hyde,  all visionaries of Irish nationhood were all Protestant. Douglas Hyde became President of Ireland in 1937.

Within Ulster religion became a marker of identity because that was where Protestants had strength in numbers and Belfast became quite prosperous in the Nineteenth-Century 

 

Edited February 5 by Captain_Townsend

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, Captain_Townsend said:

I am Irish and I teach history.

Top tip it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the legacy of British colonialism - whether Ireland was a nation or whether it should be sub servient to Britain.

Religion was a wedge issue after the Plantation of Ulster and still is a synonym but it is more complex than that. At times, the orange card was played by the Tories with disastrous consequences. For example the 1880s, 1900s, 1910s. 

Wolfe Tone, Henry Grattan, Isaac Butt, C.S. Parnell, Douglas Hyde,  all visionaries of Irish nationhood were all Protestant. 

Within Ulster religion became a marker of identity because that was where Protestants had strength in numbers and Belfast became quite prosperous in the Nineteenth-Century 

 

Agreed. Hence:

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

It's fascinating how that divide has come to pass in Ireland.

You could almost say it was down to geography more than religion initially. The religion part is almost coincidental for Ireland.

From what I understand, the catholic/protestant split was basically a result of geography. English lords and noblemen coming to Ireland in the plantation of Ulster was basically the start. They had all the power and all the money and, almost as a side note, were protestant because they came from post reformation England. 

It was the wealth and the power and the subsequent oppression from these people and then that area that caused the divide. Religion was almost an afterthought.

 

Even now, when it seems to be more about religion, it's really more about which one you are rather than any actual differences in religious beliefs.

[Captain_Townsend]

In thr C16 and C17  wealth and power came from land. The Elizabethans launched a major military conquest of Ireland and thought this would succeed if they confiscated the land and gave it to English and Scottish settlers. There were plantations before the Ulster Plantation but these failed. Elizabeth's campaign in Ireland was far larger than the Spanish Armada. In Ireland we call it the Nine Years War. 

Then there was an Irish rebellion in 1641, Kilkenny was declared the capital. After this rebellion Cromwell brought his war to Ireland and his settlement is where the Protestant Ascendancy dates to .95% of Ireland's land was owned by the Protestsnt minority (12% were Angilcans!) and the penal laws were passed. Millions were in a precarious position thereafter. That's where Ireland's links to Europe were cemented further with 34 Irish colleges set up to educate Catholics to degree level which was illegal in Ireland for about 100 years or so. People like Grattan and Wolfe Tone were visionaries who, despite being part of the privileged elite, worked to basically end the inequality.

To answer your question: if this had happened in England, what do you think would have happened?!

Edited February 5 by Captain_Townsend

[maqroll]

Apologies if this sounds ignorant, but are most N.I. Protestants English by blood, or were their ancestors converted?

[Stevo985]

16 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Apologies if this sounds ignorant, but are most N.I. Protestants English by blood, or were their ancestors converted?

I’m sure CT can give you a better answer, but from what I understand the Protestants in NI would originally be traced back to the English (on the most part). However it’s so long ago that a lot of those people wouldn’t know about their English heritage. Or if they did they’d still consider themselves Irish because it would be multiple generations ago. 
 

We’re talking centuries