Team shape, tactics and personnel

[duke313]

3 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

In a way it might be way more beneficial to the team because Gerrard might be forced to tweak the system. The LB (most likely Young) not marauding forward, tucking into midfield when we are attacking and not leaving us so susceptible on the break. Might not be a bad plan in general even if Digne was available.

I think he'll be forced to tweak the system due to the players available.  He'll need width on the left, so could see Coutinho out wider or perhaps Bailey.

[sparrow1988]

8 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I think he'll be forced to tweak the system due to the players available.  He'll need width on the left, so could see Coutinho out wider or perhaps Bailey.

I'd like to see something like that. It might make us a little more balanced.

He'll have to do something though because flogging Young up and down the wing for 90 minutes, like Captain Tom's family flogged him around their garden during the first lockdown to get their holiday to the carribean or whatever, just isn't going to work.

Edited April 11, 2022 by sparrow1988

[CVByrne]

We need to look at when we were good. It was the period after the first lockdown and the first half of last season. 

Barkley, Watkins, Grealish and Traore all playing well. Then a Luiz / McGinn double pivot in front of the flat back 4 and Martinez in sensational form. 

This worked because Watkins was made for the system. Jack was double marked and still could find ways through and that left space for the rest of the team. 

Jack got injured and Barkley lost all form. It left us with little attacking output just Watkins and Traore really. 

 

I think the significant changes this season first under Deano, then Gerrard has been tough on a squad. Plus injuries hitting us losing Bailey, Traore and Nakamba. The midfield three just doesn't work with the attacking full backs. If we lost Luiz and Sanson and replaced with two of Phillips/Bissouma/Wijnaldum we've now got the balance we need there. 

We need a new CB who can pass the ball well (Joe Gomez please). Then we need the attack sorted out. I would prefer the 1 2 to the 2 1. Obviously 3 up front would be the best imo but Gerrard seems set on having at least one 10 and that being Coutinho. So who are the front players. Watkins will be one I'm pretty sure so if Ings leaves and Archer is kept around the first team we probably need one more player for sure (Suarez I still believe will be right for us). We need that lethal finisher to go with the Watkins workrate. 

If you gave me Bissouma, Wijnaldum, Gomez, Suarez, Hickie, plus Couts/Olsen sign perm. 

Let AEG, Trez, Guilbert, Targett, Traore, Sanson, Luiz, Ings and Hause all leave. 

That would be superb business imo. The team now matches the system

[CVByrne]

33 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I think he'll be forced to tweak the system due to the players available.  He'll need width on the left, so could see Coutinho out wider or perhaps Bailey.

Coutinho can play cutting in off the left like Grealish did or as a 10 or as the attacking 8 alongside two defensive minded midfielders. He is effective at all of those. 

The two 10s would work in Coutinho / Buendia if we had a Suarez type player to finish off the chances. Archer if he progresses too has the clinical finishing needed. 

[Delphinho123]

24 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

We need to look at when we were good. It was the period after the first lockdown and the first half of last season. 

Barkley, Watkins, Grealish and Traore all playing well. Then a Luiz / McGinn double pivot in front of the flat back 4 and Martinez in sensational form. 

This worked because Watkins was made for the system. Jack was double marked and still could find ways through and that left space for the rest of the team. 

Jack got injured and Barkley lost all form. It left us with little attacking output just Watkins and Traore really. 

 

I think the significant changes this season first under Deano, then Gerrard has been tough on a squad. Plus injuries hitting us losing Bailey, Traore and Nakamba. The midfield three just doesn't work with the attacking full backs. If we lost Luiz and Sanson and replaced with two of Phillips/Bissouma/Wijnaldum we've now got the balance we need there. 

We need a new CB who can pass the ball well (Joe Gomez please). Then we need the attack sorted out. I would prefer the 1 2 to the 2 1. Obviously 3 up front would be the best imo but Gerrard seems set on having at least one 10 and that being Coutinho. So who are the front players. Watkins will be one I'm pretty sure so if Ings leaves and Archer is kept around the first team we probably need one more player for sure (Suarez I still believe will be right for us). We need that lethal finisher to go with the Watkins workrate. 

If you gave me Bissouma, Wijnaldum, Gomez, Suarez, Hickie, plus Couts/Olsen sign perm. 

Let AEG, Trez, Guilbert, Targett, Traore, Sanson, Luiz, Ings and Hause all leave. 

That would be superb business imo. The team now matches the system

I agree with most if what you say (in every thread), especially the part about the double pivot. I'd love us to go back to a 4-2-3-1 with two more defensive minded midfielders sat in front of the back 4.
But.
I'd be very disappointed in the players you list. Suarez, Gomez and Wijnaldum? No thanks. Suarez can barely move, Gomez would be a huge risk for big money and Wijnaldum will want 150k a week and he's no spring chicken. 

We need to find two new, defensive midfielders - I'd be thrilled with Bissouma and Phillips but it's likely Phillips will cost an obscene amount. Therefore it might be that we need to find that second defensive midfielder abroad (or both if Bissouma doesn't sign).

Coutinho is an obvious addition. Quality player.

[VillaParkAvenue]

46 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I'd be very disappointed in the players you list. Suarez, Gomez and Wijnaldum? No thanks. Suarez can barely move, Gomez would be a huge risk for big money and Wijnaldum will want 150k a week and he's no spring chicken. 

Adjusted for tax differences, Wijnaldum is apparently on £310k per week now.

[og1874]

Random thought, but I'm really surprised that there doesn't exist software that will use historical match data from all the top 5 leagues from, say, the last 10 years, to identify the optimal position for every player on the pitch given every possible position of the ball, opposition, and teammates, whether in attack or defence

Something where basically you create the scenario by positioning the opposition and ball, sticking in the phase of play conditions, and then having it spit out where the mathematically sound best area for every one of your players to be is, as well as transitioning through the likely outcomes based on the opposition team and players

Obviously it'd potentially ruin the game, but given some of the tech they're using now, I'm amazed this isn't a thing yet

[CVByrne]

4 hours ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Adjusted for tax differences, Wijnaldum is apparently on £310k per week now.

Coutinho is on more. Obviously we won't match his salary. Plus players need to be seen as transfer fee + salary over their contract as that's what the cost is.

[Dante_Lockhart]

----------------------Coutinho----------------------

------Buendia------------------------Bert---------

-----------------------McGinn-----------------------

----------Sanson----------------Ramsay-------

 

[sne]

For now I'd go with this if Digne is out and Nakamba is fit enough. If not Sanson next to Luiz.

Watkins

Coutinho          Buendia

Sanson

   Luiz  Nakamba

Young Mings Chambers Cash

Martinez

Gerrard get's to play his beloved 4-3-2-1 still but with adjusted instructions. Not as attacking full backs, Coutinho & Buendia must not occupy the same space or fight for the same balls. Luiz and Nakamba in a deeper double pivot (insert Friends gif)

Obviously McGinn or Ramsey are more likely to start ahead of Sanson but preferably not both together. Ings or Watkins is a coin flip since both are out of form. 

Still have issues but will hopefully be more balanced and less open while still able to string a few passes together and create something.

[VillaParkAvenue]

11 minutes ago, sne said:

For now I'd go with this if Digne is out and Nakamba is fit enough. If not Sanson next to Luiz.

Watkins

Coutinho          Buendia

Sanson

   Luiz  Nakamba

Young Mings Chambers Cash

Martinez

Gerrard get's to play his beloved 4-3-2-1 still but with adjusted instructions. Not as attacking full backs, Coutinho & Buendia must not occupy the same space or fight for the same balls. Luiz and Nakamba in a deeper double pivot (insert Friends gif)

Obviously McGinn or Ramsey are more likely to start ahead of Sanson but preferably not both together. Ings or Watkins is a coin flip since both are out of form. 

Still have issues but will hopefully be more balanced and less open while still able to string a few passes together and create something.

Comparing the outcomes of playing one or two strikers (and one or two 10s) I’d be surprised if Buendia and Coutinho started together.

[sne]

Just now, VillaParkAvenue said:

Comparing the outcomes of playing one or two strikers (and one or two 10s) I’d be surprised if Buendia and Coutinho started together.

I just don't see the upside with having 2 strikers on the pitch when neither can score on current form. Think the two 10's can work if they play a bit wider or if one drops a bit. It'll also increase our ability to keep the ball (in theory) and Buendia has great workrate.

 

[Keener window-cleaner]

First half against Spurs was among the best we have played for a long time, so in that way it's hard to argue against the formation, but at the same time it highlighted one thing that is wrong with the formation and that many of us have kept talking about - taht it makes us too vulnerable on the break. Spurs took advantage of that big time. I'd say that the Spurs game is the final evidence that it doesn't work, even when we play the formation to it's perfection and dominate Spurs, we still lose 4-0.

Basically what's wrong with the formation is that the front three are too isolated if the midfielders and full backs don't join in the attack, especially when one of the front three in Coutinho drops down into our own half and collects the ball. And when our midfielders and full backs join the attack, we become too vulnerable on the break. Perhaps it worked in the Premiership, but it doesn't work in the Premier League where many teams are specialists on counters. 

If the midfielders and full backs sit back, well then we can grind out results at times, but we will become a Steve Bruce team 2.0.

I just don't get it why they dont at least for a game try another formation that is more balanced and suits our players better. We have a more or less perfect squad to play a 4-2-3-1. Defence picks itself, Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey, Sanson and Nakamba competing for the two midfield places, Coutinho as the no 10, Bailey, Traoré and Buendia competing for the wide forward places and Watkins and Ings for the striker role. Please test it at least just once.

[TomC]

On 11/04/2022 at 09:45, CVByrne said:

Coutinho can play cutting in off the left like Grealish did or as a 10 or as the attacking 8 alongside two defensive minded midfielders. He is effective at all of those. 

The two 10s would work in Coutinho / Buendia if we had a Suarez type player to finish off the chances. Archer if he progresses too has the clinical finishing needed. 

I'm still trying to figure out why playing Coutinho and Buendia together in the front three didn't work; Buendia likes to cut in from the right, and, as you said, Coutinho likes to cut in from the left. In theory, it should work, but it didn't. Maybe you're right that it's a matter of pairing them with the right striker.

That said, while a Suarez-type might be nice, I would not want to take a risk with Suarez himself, who is probably done by most reports.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by TomC

[Anything11]

39 minutes ago, TomC said:

I'm still trying to figure out why playing Coutinho and Buendia together in the front three didn't work; Buendia likes to cut in from the right, and, as you said, Coutinho likes to cut in from the left. In theory, it should work, but it didn't. Maybe you're right that it's a matter of pairing them with the right striker.

That said, while a Suarez-type might be nice, I would not want to take a risk with Suarez himself, who is probably done by most reports.

 

 

Buendia doesn't exactly cut in though does he. He really just starts roaming about wherever he feels like and I think it has something to do with this lack of playing time. He is brilliant but doesn't hold shape all that well when we win possession.

[CVByrne]

7 hours ago, TomC said:

I'm still trying to figure out why playing Coutinho and Buendia together in the front three didn't work; Buendia likes to cut in from the right, and, as you said, Coutinho likes to cut in from the left. In theory, it should work, but it didn't. Maybe you're right that it's a matter of pairing them with the right striker.

That said, while a Suarez-type might be nice, I would not want to take a risk with Suarez himself, who is probably done by most reports.

 

I think it's because Gerrard wants the wide spaces open for the full backs to occupy all the time. While if you have wide forwards who cut in often it's still down to them to decide to cut in our go outside. Liverpool do this very well as their full backs will then cut into the half space. Also Gerrard wants the 10s centrally so wen we are turned over in possession they are closer to their defensive positions. He wants to force teams around the midfield block into the wide areas.

[duke313]

3 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I think it's because Gerrard wants the wide spaces open for the full backs to occupy all the time. While if you have wide forwards who cut in often it's still down to them to decide to cut in our go outside. Liverpool do this very well as their full backs will then cut into the half space. Also Gerrard wants the 10s centrally so wen we are turned over in possession they are closer to their defensive positions. He wants to force teams around the midfield block into the wide areas.

But teams play right through us in the middle.

[duke313]

9 hours ago, Anything11 said:

 

Buendia doesn't exactly cut in though does he. He really just starts roaming about wherever he feels like and I think it has something to do with this lack of playing time. He is brilliant but doesn't hold shape all that well when we win possession.

The squad is so unbalanced it's not even funny.

[AshVilla]

Sums up Gerrard tactically.

[lexicon]

12 hours ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

First half against Spurs was among the best we have played for a long time, so in that way it's hard to argue against the formation, but at the same time it highlighted one thing that is wrong with the formation and that many of us have kept talking about - taht it makes us too vulnerable on the break. Spurs took advantage of that big time. I'd say that the Spurs game is the final evidence that it doesn't work, even when we play the formation to it's perfection and dominate Spurs, we still lose 4-0.

Basically what's wrong with the formation is that the front three are too isolated if the midfielders and full backs don't join in the attack, especially when one of the front three in Coutinho drops down into our own half and collects the ball. And when our midfielders and full backs join the attack, we become too vulnerable on the break. Perhaps it worked in the Premiership, but it doesn't work in the Premier League where many teams are specialists on counters. 

If the midfielders and full backs sit back, well then we can grind out results at times, but we will become a Steve Bruce team 2.0.

I just don't get it why they dont at least for a game try another formation that is more balanced and suits our players better. We have a more or less perfect squad to play a 4-2-3-1. Defence picks itself, Luiz, McGinn, Ramsey, Sanson and Nakamba competing for the two midfield places, Coutinho as the no 10, Bailey, Traoré and Buendia competing for the wide forward places and Watkins and Ings for the striker role. Please test it at least just once.

Well this is the problem - his entire managerial experience came from there. He had no idea what it was like to manage a team that isn't financially head and shoulders above all but one other club - it was easy to get in better players than everyone else, so he could just rely on the players to win him games rather than having to show some tactical aptitude or preparation for certain opposition. 

His and our only hope is that he's actually learning a bit, but the two issues there are that he's massively egotistical (IMO) and not the sharpest. The former is a problem but it can be corrected if there's a degree of self-awareness and the wherewithal to turn it around that the latter can bring. The epitome of someone like that is Tim Sherwood who was arrogant and very thick. I don't think Gerrard is as bad as that but he needs to pull his finger out and actually do something rather than saying 'I take responsibility' - it's useless if he doesn't act on our problems.