Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

Just now, TRO said:

I read somewhere, that said they were surprised by Unai's style of Offence, with Aston Villa, and that they thought he was defensive in is approach.

Maybe we don't have to change our style, maybe we just need to get some players, who are better at defending, and better intelligence in positioning.

Whatever, is required....conceding the goals like we do, in terms of ease, and as often, away from home..... will come back and bite us.

Most likely. And therein comes the hefty price tag as elite defenders are hard to come by and a miniscule amount are academy grown.

We saw the drop off in Liverpool when their defenders are injured as well as how lifeless City seem to be without Rodri or Stones.

Arsenal fell apart without Saliba down the stretch.

Pau/Konsa have been a great pairing but Mings/Konsa was better defensively. If only we were lucky to have all three to use in different situations.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Most likely. And therein comes the hefty price tag as elite defenders are hard to come by and a miniscule amount are academy grown.

We saw the drop off in Liverpool when their defenders are injured as well as how lifeless City seem to be without Rodri or Stones.

Arsenal fell apart without Saliba down the stretch.

Pau/Konsa have been a great pairing but Mings/Konsa was better defensively. If only we were lucky to have all three to use in different situations.

couldn't agree more.

Hence my enthusiasm, to get some more players in, along the lines of who you have mentioned.

Mings has been a massive miss....but I also think it has shown us how few defensive minded players we have in the squad.

We must remember, the types we are mentioning, can play a bit too....There are players out there, who can defend and attack, with equal aplomb.

It tickles me, when a defensive player is mentioned.....a kind of Gavin McCann or Glenn Whelan fills their thoughts....we have moved on from those hard working boys of the past.

[DJBOB]

One thing that might just be luck but I believe Unai is managing is the low pressure/high line requires less intensive sprints for our players. Given the packed schedule, I feel like this has to reduce the possibility of injury somewhat. You see United and Spurs already dropping like flies because of their intense press. Again - it could all just be luck - but it may be a reason you see UE employ the seemingly low intensity pressure recoveries that other teams employ.

Sorted by tackle attempts and you see who's leading the way

Interestingly enough...at the bottom of the table...

[MWARLEY2]

Very different tactics in Europe as opposed to the Prem. Slower build up. But interestingly * for me only * is that we have scored 7 headed goals in Europe vs zero in the prem so far.  

[MWARLEY2]

On 10/11/2023 at 14:06, DJBOB said:

One thing that might just be luck but I believe Unai is managing is the low pressure/high line requires less intensive sprints for our players. Given the packed schedule, I feel like this has to reduce the possibility of injury somewhat. You see United and Spurs already dropping like flies because of their intense press. Again - it could all just be luck - but it may be a reason you see UE employ the seemingly low intensity pressure recoveries that other teams employ.

Sorted by tackle attempts and you see who's leading the way

Interestingly enough...at the bottom of the table...

I think you are absolutely right. Emery has dealt with this midweek weekend schedule for 16 years. He knows that he cannnot keep on flogging players. Its a lower intensity game he plays at times. Chess in many cases. 

Watching the way Newcastle are running round tonignt. No controlled possession. Press press press.  No wonder they have 5 and a half players left 

[CVByrne]

21 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Very different tactics in Europe as opposed to the Prem. Slower build up. But interestingly * for me only * is that we have scored 7 headed goals in Europe vs zero in the prem so far.  

Prem is known for having very big physical players and we're not one of the big physical teams in the Prem so we try different things for Corners. In Europe however we have the physical edge so can go direct into box. 

[CVByrne]

The rule bringing in semi automated offsides next season in Prem will benefit us as too often players are offside but the linesman misses it and the attack continues. We recover possession or opposition win a corner or whatever. Obviously this is both ways but as we use offside trap more than anyone it matters more to us having them called correctly in an automated way. 

[DJBOB]

5 hours ago, MWARLEY2 said:

I think you are absolutely right. Emery has dealt with this midweek weekend schedule for 16 years. He knows that he cannnot keep on flogging players. Its a lower intensity game he plays at times. Chess in many cases. 

Watching the way Newcastle are running round tonignt. No controlled possession. Press press press.  No wonder they have 5 and a half players left 

Gave up 2 goals and their players looked like they had noodle legs. 
 
It would be a blessing for them to get knocked out of champions league. Their identity is based on outrunning teams and that can’t be done playing 3 matches in a week. 

[Tom13]

With Diaby a nailed on starter (rightly so), when everyone's fit, will it leave Tielemans, Bailey, Buendia and Ramsey vying for one spot? (I've left out Zaniolo as he's only on loan but he's probably had the most minutes in that role this season, appreciate if JJ was fit it would likely be a different story though) Or will McGinn be fighting for his place also?

Edited November 23, 2023 by Tom13

[villa89]

No chance mcginn doesn't start in the first XI. I think it will be JJ, mcginn, luiz and kamara in midfield as the first choice. 

[Tom13]

5 minutes ago, villa89 said:

No chance mcginn doesn't start in the first XI. I think it will be JJ, mcginn, luiz and kamara in midfield as the first choice. 

So that likely leaves four players (five with Zaniolo) fighting for one spot. Unless Tielemans is rotated with Kamara/Luiz, but he's looked better more advanced so far.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Tom13

[Villaphan04]

23 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

With Diaby a nailed on starter (rightly so), when everyone's fit, will it leave Tielemans, Bailey, Buendia and Ramsey vying for one spot? (I've left out Zaniolo as he's only on loan but he's probably had the most minutes in that role this season, appreciate if JJ was fit it would likely be a different story though) Or will McGinn be fighting for his place also?

if Ramsey is vying for a spot, then I'd have to say McGinn is as well -- but I think a lot depends on the opposition. 

[MotoMkali]

40 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

With Diaby a nailed on starter (rightly so), when everyone's fit, will it leave Tielemans, Bailey, Buendia and Ramsey vying for one spot? (I've left out Zaniolo as he's only on loan but he's probably had the most minutes in that role this season, appreciate if JJ was fit it would likely be a different story though) Or will McGinn be fighting for his place also?

I'd assume mcginns place would be under threat. 

JJ I think is probably the most important player we have besides Luiz in terms of progressing play. Without him as the outlet absolutely everything has had to go through Luiz this season which is why we have struggled so much without Dougie. 

I'd guess Tielemans, Bailey, Buendia, Mcginn and Ramsey would be fighting for the 2 places on the wings with Mcginn and Ramsey having big edges and Tielemans, Bailey and Buendia fighting with Diaby for the SS role. 

[OutByEaster?]

I can't see Ramsey just coming in and starting, but if he does it'd be for Tielemans.

 

[troon_villan]

The money we have spent on the 5 central midfielders who played a part today is crazy, truly crazy! South of £20m is it?? Haha

All of them absolutely top class aswell!

[DJBOB]

I think for as much we have our away problems, my belief is that it is self-inflicted with the defensive formation with Cash at RW. In our attempts to mitigate the opponent by lining up in a super defensive manner (3 CB's, two fullbacks, 3 midfielders and two forwards) - we take our away ability to score first and early.

The Cash at RW experiment only really worked against Burnley and they're bottom of the league. Away at Liverpool, Wolves, and now Spurs - we have struggled with Cash at RW to build out of the first and second phases when the opponent presses. Cash is not a prototypical RW in Unai's system who's able to move infield and manipulate the space to progress forward. He wants to hug the touchline and that causes an issue when the ball is swept to Konsa as Cash is on the same vertical lane forward with no ability to beat or threaten his marker.

This causes a downstream issue where it is too easy to pin us against the sidelines and then force dangerous 50/50 balls across the middle. Watkins can win some of these but Diaby has not shown the ability to do so.

Against City and Arsenal, we will see if Unai sticks to it. Maybe Unai thinks he can coach Cash into taking more inside positions but Cash himself looks horribly uncomfortable cutting in. Maybe switching McGinn and Cash so they're cutting on their natural foot might be more fruitful? Cash at LM and McGinn at RM. For as much as he doesn't want to use Bailey immediately, it would solve a lot of the problems by having Bailey out wide to hold/progress when we're trying to build out. Then again, Bailey has struggled to do so as well.

Therein is Unai's conundrum - by going more defensive with Cash, we have been unable to hold onto the ball and as a result, give up more chances anyway. Whether Unai thinks he can coach the position better to Cash will be the question. Otherwise, he will need to go with a more attacking personnel and trust in them to track back appropriately.

[avfc1982am]

A good piece from 442.

 

[MaVilla]

 

[KevinRichardsonsMoustache]

1 hour ago, MaVilla said:

 

Really enjoyed this video, thanks for posting about it. 
 

Genuine question here: how do teams fall for these traps? I mean, FFT can see it; other coaches can see the tactics; but it works so often. Is there a chance that these tactics will wear thin over time? 
 

Or is the system more complex and multifaceted than FFT can cram into a short video? I mean, players have spoken about Emery doing massive briefings on the opposition: how is he tweaking this system for different teams? Is that why we’re so good? That we have this system but that it can be customised in ways that thwart opponents’ plans? 

Or, long term, is the plan to finish higher up the table to attract more players capable of playing even more complex systems? The dance continues. 
 

Maybe the answer to all of the above is ‘yes’. Or maybe I’m being a classic Villa fan and trying to envisage when this fairytale ends? Just so desperate that we don’t lose this edge we have atm.  
 

Aston Villa: fans who see rain when there’s a rainbow. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by KevinRichardsonsMoustache

[MaVilla]

41 minutes ago, KevinRichardsonsMoustache said:

Really enjoyed this video, thanks for posting about it. 
 

Genuine question here: how do teams fall for these traps? I mean, FFT can see it; other coaches can see the tactics; but it works so often. Is there a chance that these tactics will wear thin over time? 
 

Or is the system more complex and multifaceted than FFT can cram into a short video? I mean, players have spoken about Emery doing massive briefings on the opposition: how is he tweaking this system for different teams? Is that why we’re so good? That we have this system but that it can be customised in ways that thwart opponents’ plans? 

Or, long term, is the plan to finish higher up the table to attract more players capable of playing even more complex systems? The dance continues. 
 

Maybe the answer to all of the above is ‘yes’. Or maybe I’m being a classic Villa fan and trying to envisage when this fairytale ends? Just so desperate that we don’t lose this edge we have atm.  
 

Aston Villa: fans who see rain when there’s a rainbow. 

i think the reason the "traps" work is because there is more than one of them, it isnt one dimensional like "we always play tika-taka", or "we always play with a low block and hit teams on the break", in theory ours is a hybrid, if they do A, we do B, if they counter B, we go to C, Emery seems to not just play in "one style", so depending on what the opposition does, there is more than one way to skin the cat, and we have a few different shaped knives!?

I think what i have seen, both from others reviewing it, and my own eyes, is we clearly play a hybrid style where we almost play like a mini Man City in our own half, but when the time comes we go fast and go hard in a false transition, like a break situation, but we create the break via our own intelligent build up, drawing their players on and creating artificial space in behind, i have also seen comments that Emery tries to create managed chaos in the midfield, overloading it, drawing our players and theirs in, and trusting through training and system work that our technical players can come out on top and exploit that chaos and utilise the space created in other areas of the pitch to release quick, incisive breaks/transitions.

I dont think "wear thin" is the thing, but as we become more of a problem (aka, the more we do well), the more teams will study us closer to try and find holes in the system, ofc this will work to a degree, but i guess the better players we have, the more we improve, and improve our players (by doing well, and investing to further improve the team), the more capable we are of implementing the system, and on average, against good, but not quite as good players and tactics, you will win out more often than not, but yeah, the better we continue to do, over time people will try and succeed to counter us, which ofc does happen, as we dont win every game , but does it work more often than not, especially as our first 11 continues to improve?, seems it does.

he is tweaking it by doing various things, obviously i cant list or even know them all, for i am a mere human! , but all sorts of things like just how high does the back line go depending on the opposition, how compact is the team in the different phases of play, do we press more or less, do we press central or wide, do we try to build more from the back in certain games and create false transitions, or do we go more on the press and try to turn the ball over quickly, or do we do a mid of that and try to catch offside, or force long balls and recover the ball via our defenders, and build from the back, or do we build from the back slowly and play through, or do we try to create fast breaks in transition, do we attack centrally or more running channels to target a weak spot, i guess we do all of those to varyingly increased or decreased levels depending on the opposition?

I would guess the idea is to do as well as we can, improve, attract better players to implement the style/system more effectively, as far as i can tell Emery has used these systems/tactics literally everywhere he has been, the only clear variance i have seen anywhere is his preference of base tactic/formation, he uses 442 usually here, but i have seen a comment by him that 442 is the "best overall" system for ok attack but solidity in defence and offers a non-elite club (ie: underdogs) the best chance to get an outcome, but he actually prefers 433 or 4141as its better when the first 11 is....elite?, but he sees them as slightly less balanced compared to a base 442.

in terms of being a negative nelly, i dont think you should beat yourself up, the last 20 ish years have been tough for Villa fans overall, heck, i have a tea cup thats says "i cant keep calm, im a Villa fan".......says it all really, i think if we can get our transfers right and back Emery over the next couple of windows we should be able to develop and build, but its always fine margins i guess, what i do think though, is Emery is as good a chance of taking us back to the big table as any manager i have seen since the 90s (possibly more), and if we turn against him we deserve everything we get, so lets just trust the best manager we have had in....literal decades?, and buckle up for the ride