Team shape, tactics and personnel

[picicata]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

it doesn't matter what formation you choose....if the players do not put it in, the result won't come out.

Palace highlighted tonight playing 4-3-3 that its down to a motivated group willing to battle and deny the opposition the opportunity to play football.

I accept that right now, SG is unable to get any kind of aggression out of this team, they are passive and forlorn and filled with melancholy...perhaps he needs to phone Viera and ask him how he does it.

Whilst you certainly need all that, as you say, I think the players are confused and probably demotivated by the system Gerrard is imposing. Playing with the 8s dropping into full back roles, high full backs, no wingers and all forwards occupying a very small area of the top of the pitch has completely thrown them all off their game. I think the players are thinking, and worrying, way too much about their positions and not allowing their natural games to flow.

To then have your manager come out and call you a bunch of losers who need replacing probably doesn't help with motivation and belief.

[duke313]

3 hours ago, punkiller1981 said:

Having watched the arsenal game from high up in the holte end and the tactics of two number 10’s really shocked me by how restrictive it is. We played the ball out short to konsa and mings and if they didn’t play long and give the ball away they end up at the two full backs. Our midfield are a liability when we play inside and you could see cash especially reluctant to play that ball. Buendia was playing narrow anyway but it looked like he had been told do not go wide because there were times he could of dropped into a hole on the touch line and cash had a little ball down the line which he was clearly looking for but instead buendia went even narrower inside to what was an already over packed midfield and we play into traffic lose the ball. That happened so many times it felt like it had to be an instruction. 
 

i would have thought with a player like coutunhio in your team you would want to give him a bit of space to operate in so over crowding his key areas would be a thing to avoid. 

I don't know any other team that plays with two narrow 10s the way we do.  Only one I can think of is Milan under Ancelotti, but they had Seedorf and Kaka, and probably the best defense in the world at the time, maybe ever.

It might have worked in Scotland were most teams sat back and defended against Rangers, but it's not working in the Prem. 

[IrishVilla10]

14 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Sorry I dont buy this, some of them might not be good enough but they are not a bunch of freeloaders. The days of Gabby, McCormack are gone

Not one player I would accuse of not pulling the weight. The management team on the other hand are making the players vulnerable by playing a shit system

When we won at Brighton I thought we’d turned a corner, our fullbacks played in more natural positions and Mcginn and JJ weren’t covering so much. Ollie and Ings looked like they could actually play together. Now we’ve gone backwards again. I think everyone wanted to see Sanson play but to drop Doug and give up the midfield to do so was a disaster at the weekend. Chambers being dropped doesn’t make sense, when Konsa and Mings play we have one outlet from the back. For a team trying to play it out from the back we’re so negative, no one wants to move the ball forward. I don’t know if that’s a system thing or mentality thing and I wonder if that’s what Gerrard is getting at. Coutinho dropping so deep to try and get things moving makes me thing it’s a mentality thing, everyone wants to play it safe

[hippo]

30 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Sorry I dont buy this, some of them might not be good enough but they are not a bunch of freeloaders. The days of Gabby, McCormack are gone

Not one player I would accuse of not pulling the weight. The management team on the other hand are making the players vulnerable by playing a shit system

Indeed - running around like headless chickens, and being generally disorganised seems more of an issue - than players not putting a shift in. 

[TRO]

Anyone who is unsure of what is wrong with us, only had to watch Crystal Palace last night.....They had urgency, tenacity and intensity only we could dream of.

I have no idea, why we can't muster anything like this.

[HKP90]

On 03/04/2022 at 10:34, Zatman said:

Nope its a very likeable team with a manager who hasnt a clue tactically. I think the players are frustrated with him 

Did anyone think at his appointment that he was a tactically complete manager, though. He had never managed at this level. We said it at the time. 

 

[duke313]

Just now, HKP90 said:

Did anyone think at his appointment that he was a tactically complete manager, though. He had never managed at this level. We said it at the time. 

 

We were sold the idea we were getting a manager with an unnatural desire to win and a backroom team filled with tactical geniuses'

[HKP90]

Just now, duke313 said:

We were sold the idea we were getting a manager with an unnatural desire to win and a backroom team filled with tactical geniuses'

FWIW I'm still behind SG, but he has a lot to learn. I was personally getting pelters for expressing reservations (but still being broadly behind the appointment despite not wanting Dean gone). I think a lot of folk were convincing themselves that what you say was the case. 

[Tom13]

2 hours ago, picicata said:

I think that's the danger. If we are to stick with him then he needs six new first 11 players (one CB, three Midfielders, one number 10 and a striker) as well as a few squad additions (RB,LB and GK).

We don't need three midfielders, nor a number 10.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, picicata said:

Whilst you certainly need all that, as you say, I think the players are confused and probably demotivated by the system Gerrard is imposing. Playing with the 8s dropping into full back roles, high full backs, no wingers and all forwards occupying a very small area of the top of the pitch has completely thrown them all off their game. I think the players are thinking, and worrying, way too much about their positions and not allowing their natural games to flow.

To then have your manager come out and call you a bunch of losers who need replacing probably doesn't help with motivation and belief.

The flat performances were there, way before those comments came, those performances clearly irked him, for him to say that....Those performances were there, the first game of the season too, under a different manager.....when Watford get the double over you, that surely must set alarm bells ringing.

I saw, similar issues to now, when we was playing with wingers and deep full backs, I don't see the system change as the main issue.......where did the Southampton and Leeds performance come from, if it was a system issue.......Its a player motivation issue, I will grant you that or they just haven't got the athleticism on a regular basis to sustain the intensity, urgency the game requires. It could be many of them think they are on their way, but surely they should be fired up to prove the manager wrong, but judging by the Targett response, to be left out and challnged for his place, maybe some are just losers.

I think its clear to see whats wrong.....how to put it right, is the tricky bit.

Edited April 5, 2022 by TRO

[HKP90]

10 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

FWIW I'm still behind SG, but he has a lot to learn. I was personally getting pelters for expressing reservations (but still being broadly behind the appointment despite not wanting Dean gone). I think a lot of folk were convincing themselves that what you say was the case. 

And to add, I don't think he's a crap manager now, just as I didn't think he was the second coming of Pep before. 

[Zatman]

6 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

We don't need three midfielders, nor a number 10.

Probably not a striker either 

[Zhan_Zhuang]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

Sorry I dont buy this, some of them might not be good enough but they are not a bunch of freeloaders. The days of Gabby, McCormack are gone

Not one player I would accuse of not pulling the weight. The management team on the other hand are making the players vulnerable by playing a shit system

Perhaps you won't agree with me, but I have a feeling Gerrard will.

Big changes in the Summer, mark my words!

Many of the same players were also woefully inconsistent under Dean Smith.

We can't keep blaming the manager when the players are mostly the same and we are midtable nobodies for two seasons running.

Sure, if we are midtable at the end of next season for a third season with different players then we can have the debate about managers, systems etc.

[picicata]

8 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

We don't need three midfielders, nor a number 10.

We only have own one number 10, Buendia. If we are playing a system with two we need to buy another.

None of our current midfielders suit Gerrard's preferred system. If we want to be successful and challenge for Europe using that system we will need to replace all three starters.

Though this is probably better kept for the formation topic rather than the Gerrard one.

[picicata]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

The flat performances were there, way before those comments came, those performances clearly irked him, for him to say that....Those performances were there, the first game of the season too, under a different manager.....when Watford get the double over you, that surely must set alarm bells ringing.

I saw, similar issues to now, when we was playing with wingers and deep full backs, I don't see the system change as the main issue.......where did the Southampton and Leeds performance come from, if it was a system issue.......Its a player motivation issue, I will grant you that or they just haven't got the athleticism on a regular basis to sustain the intensity, urgency the game requires. It could be many of them think they are on their way, but surely they should be fired up to prove the manager wrong, but judging by the Targett response, to be left out and challnged for his place, maybe some are just losers.

I think its clear to see whats wrong.....how to put it right, is the tricky bit.

He changed the system from 4321 to 4312. Gerrard asked the players to play quite differently to how he is now.

[The_Steve]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

Sorry I dont buy this, some of them might not be good enough but they are not a bunch of freeloaders. The days of Gabby, McCormack are gone

Not one player I would accuse of not pulling the weight. The management team on the other hand are making the players vulnerable by playing a shit system

Weak mentality - failure to close out games, too many passengers when games are tough. Reality is the players fold too often - Gerrard thought more steel and experience would help and it has to a degree - you cannot account for individual mistakes in games, but key players have dropped in form. Heck, even Emi made mistakes that cost us goals. I think people are looking for some wider narrative that undermines it all. I don’t think that’s the case. We are comfortably a low mid table side  - which neither the board nor Gerrard want. Hence the manner of some performances. You can only get so much out what is limited. Sometimes things click and sometimes they don’t. Such is the game. 
 

Acting like Gerrard is McLeish is laughable - we had the same issues under Smith. There’s a reason why certain players have been shipped out on loan. 

[nick76]

12 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Probably not a striker either 

Definitely need a striker

[Tom13]

8 minutes ago, picicata said:

We only have own one number 10, Buendia. If we are playing a system with two we need to buy another.

None of our current midfielders suit Gerrard's preferred system. If we want to be successful and challenge for Europe using that system we will need to replace all three starters.

Though this is probably better kept for the formation topic rather than the Gerrard one.

Yeah I'm desperately hoping he scraps the two number 10s system.

I think one quality DM will be good for now.

A new DM plus two of Sanson/Luiz/Ramsey starting would be a solid midfield for me. And in my fantasy land McGinn would be 4th choice in the 8 role.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

I always thing lost the dressing room is a bit over dramatic.

However my concern is that if these group of players aren't on board with what Stevie G  wants - whats to say any new incumbents will be ? 

 

We have to place character, high on the list of attributes, to any new recruits....the whole team is full of melancholy.

but equally hippo, maybe they wouldn't be on board with what another manager would want, if it was a different face.....These players are as flat as a witches tit, nearly all of them, there is no belief and it shows in their tackle, duel or a mere coming together, they come out second best....there is no conviction in their play.

Something had to change from the face of the team, that got Dean Smith the sack.....Countinho and Digne, as fine a footballer as they are....was not what we needed to change that face.....We are still much the same, with the same turgid traits with a different manager, different tactics and different formation.....The mood in the last 3 games is the same as it was under Dean Smith.

I have to admit, I am surprised, That SG has been unable to sustain the manager bounce, these players have just slipped back in to pre Gerrard Mode....and I think he is surprised too.....maybe the manager bounce, mislead him, in his thinking In January....It did me.

Only when you see and study the way Palace, negated a spirited Arsenal with 5 away wins in their locker, can you understand what is missing with our team....its as clear as daylight.

You think its the manager, I think its the players and the balance in the side of having too many attack minded players......but the way Mateta, put in a physical shiift, was enough to inspire any team, he was mind blowing in his effort....right now we have no one to spark that physical revival to create intensity or urgency....usually a few aggressive tackles early on, sets the tone and the rest of the team respond.....we haven't got anybody to do that.....No leaders.

[Zatman]

4 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

Weak mentality - failure to close out games, too many passengers when games are tough. Reality is the players fold too often - Gerrard thought more steel and experience would help and it has to a degree - you cannot account for individual mistakes in games, but key players have dropped in form. Heck, even Emi made mistakes that cost us goals. I think people are looking for some wider narrative that undermines it all. I don’t think that’s the case. We are comfortably a low mid table side  - which neither the board nor Gerrard want. Hence the manner of some performances. You can only get so much out what is limited. Sometimes things click and sometimes they don’t. Such is the game. 
 

Acting like Gerrard is McLeish is laughable - we had the same issues under Smith. There’s a reason why certain players have been shipped out on loan. 

2 wingers as its a position we dont play, a 3rd choice goalkeeper, a striker that hasnt played since the opening day of 2020 and a left back in a position we desperately need cover