TRO Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 17 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said: Smarter how though? His overall game has improved this season, 8 assists in the league is excellent. I don’t think there’s anything different Ollie can do when the reason he’s not getting chances starts from the defence, Everton for example he’s chasing long balls and battling tarkowski for knock downs. He’s been working smarter since Emery arrived, I just think we need to evolve even more in the final third and how we get there Are you saying he can't improve?.......can you expand on that? I think he could give defenders a harder time than he does......He has to make things happen, to improve more. If you think, there is nothing more that Ollie can do, then thats fine......I believe some of it is nuance and tweaks......and I like Ollie, and wouldn't want to lose him, but I do see, his weaknesses, in games. Let me ask you, do you think Ivan Toney, is more effective than Ollie, from purely a football perspective?.....not personality, just football....is he more likely to score goals?. Now, I don't like his character, but I like his devilment and his aggression. Ollie could be even better, with a bit of what Ivan has. PS maybe the gameplan against Chelsea, wasn't the ideal time, to look at his goal scoring prowess. Edited January 27 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Hard to blame him for not scoring when he's not getting any service. I often wonder if people are actually watching the games or just looking at the stats to judge players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 4 minutes ago, villa89 said: Hard to blame him for not scoring when he's not getting any service. I often wonder if people are actually watching the games or just looking at the stats to judge players. why is he not getting any service? maybe folk are watching the games, but looking a different things to each other....is why we have these cross fertilisation of opinions. Ollie is not the sole reason, for our edge slipping a bit.....but I do think in some ways, he could do better....maybe he is doing precisely what the manager wants, in which case, I will stand corrected. but I do watch other, forwards in other games too. Edited January 27 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted January 27 Visiting Supporter Share Posted January 27 His first touch hasn’t really improved under Smith or indeed Emery which is alarming. I also still feel Emery tying him down to be in and around the box more doesn’t really benefit the team or the player. Watkins previously made a lot of runs in behind teams on the flanks which gave Villa’s midfielders more to hit. Now he is too easily marked being a lot more static through the middle. This has certainly contributed to Villa’s lack of goals recently imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishVilla10 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 25 minutes ago, TRO said: Are you saying he can't improve?.......can you expand on that? I think he could give defenders a harder time than he does......He has to make things happen, to improve more. If you think, there is nothing more that Ollie can do, then thats fine......I believe some of it is nuance and tweaks......and I like Ollie, and wouldn't want to lose him, but I do see, his weaknesses, in games. Let me ask you, do you think Ivan Toney, is more effective than Ollie, from purely a football perspective?.....not personality, just football....is he more likely to score goals?. Now, I don't like his character, but I like his devilment and his aggression. Ollie could be even better, with a bit of what Ivan has. PS maybe the gameplan against Chelsea, wasn't the ideal time, to look at his goal scoring prowess. Of course he can improve, I’ve not said otherwise. The answer for me is not for him to be smarter though, and definitely not give defenders a harder time. The system and how Ollie performed in the first half of the season was perfect, now teams have clocked how we play, and up top we’re less effective. We want to control games, every situation is coached and the majority of our goals are perfectly worked chances in the box, you can’t do that every game. Did Ollie give tarkowski and brainthwite a hard time? Nothing came of that either. Ollies way of making things happen is dropping deep to create space and pull a defender with him, and he does it well. Ollie and Ivan play in two very different teams with different methods of attacking in the final third. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 37 minutes ago, villa89 said: Hard to blame him for not scoring when he's not getting any service. I often wonder if people are actually watching the games or just looking at the stats to judge players. I realise Ollie is at his best when he has the ball to his feet on a plate, he has alway been this kind of striker and rarely makes goals for himself. But a top quality striker find ways of making goals without being fully dependent on your team mates to do all the work. I watch him alot, an more times than not, he is not finding space or making that run, apart from when he is 110% on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 15 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said: Of course he can improve, I’ve not said otherwise. The answer for me is not for him to be smarter though, and definitely not give defenders a harder time. The system and how Ollie performed in the first half of the season was perfect, now teams have clocked how we play, and up top we’re less effective. We want to control games, every situation is coached and the majority of our goals are perfectly worked chances in the box, you can’t do that every game. Did Ollie give tarkowski and brainthwite a hard time? Nothing came of that either. Ollies way of making things happen is dropping deep to create space and pull a defender with him, and he does it well. Ollie and Ivan play in two very different teams with different methods of attacking in the final third. I accept all of that. The emboldened bit leaves me sctaching my head......all teams in the League, have their owns style.....that is not considered, when the end of season awards are compiled. They equally have varying attributes too.....some similar, some very much different.....but it all boils down to how effective they are. I am not bashing Ollie, I could write glowing, remarks about him.....I just think he could do better. If I thought it wasn't in him, I wouldn't be writing this, but I think it is, if he digs deeper. If he doesn't find some prolificacy, it will cost him his international place....we have been here before, haven't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 24 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: But a top quality striker find ways of making goals without being fully dependent on your team mates to do all the work. He's not a top quality striker, never has been never will be. There aren't many of them around. Look at the quality of strikers bought recently by Liverpool, Man utd, Chelsea for big money. None of them are any better than Ollie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChesterDad Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 5 hours ago, TRO said: Ollie on form is a very good front man....but he relies on the team playing well....He lacks aggression for me, and I mean aggression with himself......Cyril Regis was a bit like that, really nice guys....John Sillet his manager at Coventry, used to hose him down before a game to fire him up....strikers like Andy Gray, Peter withe, Ivan Toney, were intrinsically aggressive, on the pitch.....they made things happen. I am just guessing....but it just looks ok from him, if he fails to score, something needs to change.....He has to find some aggression, from somewhere.....on top of 2 more without it, Diaby and Bailey, the front 3 are looking toothless. I have no issue with Ollies, technical abilities....its his mental approach to games, that concerns me. You surprise TRO - you are clearly a very knowledgable person - but you are not concerned by Ollie’s technical abilities ? Surely this is the main talking point when discussing all things Ollie? In my humble opinion - his lack of technical ability is the reason, why he will never quite bridge the gap to being an elite striker - very good, but not elite.? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Only Haaland and Salah have more goals and assists combined than him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChesterDad Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, useless said: Only Haaland and Salah have more goals and assists combined than him And both would be classed as elite imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 42 minutes ago, ChesterDad said: And both would be classed as elite imo. Case in point, we won’t be getting them any time soon. Ollie is who he is. A gifted striker who is an 8 or so all around in his game but not a 10 in any category besides his freakish fitness. If there is a better striker out there that we can buy, and that’s the crucial part because we aren’t getting Salah or Haaland, then I’m all for it. But until then, lots of other pieces of the squad need help first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChesterDad Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 33 minutes ago, DJBOB said: Case in point, we won’t be getting them any time soon. Ollie is who he is. A gifted striker who is an 8 or so all around in his game but not a 10 in any category besides his freakish fitness. If there is a better striker out there that we can buy, and that’s the crucial part because we aren’t getting Salah or Haaland, then I’m all for it. But until then, lots of other pieces of the squad need help first. I don’t think anyone has suggested we will be. I think that the point some are making here is that Ollie is a very good footballer, but not elite. His weakness in my humble opinion is a lacking in technical ability - quite evident last night, again imo - but that does not mean that - we are not happy he is in our team. I would like to see a striker with a different skill set to come and support Ollie and play a different role as and when needed. This I feel could help us even further in our transition. I like Ollie - but i would love to see some help for him. Duran might do this in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 It's a long season. All players find it hard to maintain their top standards every game. I think he's a player that feeds off other players being at the top of their game too. The fact there's no challenge for his position can also lead to complacency too. With regard to comparisons to Toney. The difference Is toney has the confidence and swagger about him. He knows hes too good for Btentford but it might be different if he plsyed for an Arsenal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 7 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said: Of course he can improve, I’ve not said otherwise. The answer for me is not for him to be smarter though, and definitely not give defenders a harder time. The system and how Ollie performed in the first half of the season was perfect, now teams have clocked how we play, and up top we’re less effective. We want to control games, every situation is coached and the majority of our goals are perfectly worked chances in the box, you can’t do that every game. Did Ollie give tarkowski and brainthwite a hard time? Nothing came of that either. Ollies way of making things happen is dropping deep to create space and pull a defender with him, and he does it well. Ollie and Ivan play in two very different teams with different methods of attacking in the final third. Agree with all your recent comments… I just think Ollie is a really easy target. When team performances have dropped off and we are not creating many (clear) chances… I don’t see why he should bear the brunt of the blame… there are plenty of other “candidates” that would make more sense… we failed to gain control of midfield against Chelsea, for example, when (imo) we have the better players in that department… We are just a different side away from home… and have been a beast for the most part at VP… but the injuries and suspensions have really disrupted us… I could kind of understand when Ollie was being criticised for missing chances last season… but… he hasn’t had many chances (or much service) recently and is still clearly working hard and trying to get involved… he shouldn’t be having to chase for long balls as he had to in the past either… Ollie is up there for most goal contributions and assists… he has clearly been heavily involved… and there arguably isn’t a harder working CF in the league… I think everything will improve again, the team will play better and Ollie will get more chances to tuck away… guess we just have to be patient… In the meantime… there are bigger “concerns” than how Ollie is doing imo… I’ve been a little concerned about our lack of creativity recently and also started wondering whether we rely “too heavily” on set piece routines (like it’s our primary way or objective for scoring)… rather than creating chances in open play as much as we were and with the level and amount of intricate passing as we have seen for the majority of Unai’s tenure so far… is there an over reliance on that aspect of our play now? I’m not sure but… it’s got me thinking… I do think another big/impressive performance is on the way soon (like the thrashings of Brighton and West Ham… and let’s not forget our complete domination of Man City so quickly either, although we should have scored more goals in that game… has that “taken it out” of us/the team?) and hopefully we go on some kind of run… It’s impossible for any team to keep playing amazingly well and be so consistent… we have been kind of “over achieving” (Unai has with the players at his disposal) and long may that continue… and may we see more and more improvements from these players… but… we just can’t expect to be “on fire” in every game… We will be back and so will Ollie.. UTV Edited January 28 by Jas10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, PaulC said: It's a long season. All players find it hard to maintain their top standards every game. I think he's a player that feeds off other players being at the top of their game too. The fact there's no challenge for his position can also lead to complacency too. With regard to comparisons to Toney. The difference Is toney has the confidence and swagger about him. He knows hes too good for Btentford but it might be different if he plsyed for an Arsenal Plus how much would VT like Toney with the way he’s twerking for one of the Sky 6 to take him? Ollie may not be Mr Aston Villa, but he’s an honest player with not a bad word to say about the club. So unless some elite striker comes along, he holds his place. Edited January 28 by DJBOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 4 minutes ago, DJBOB said: Plus how much would VT like Toney with the way he’s twerking for one of the Sky 6 to take him? Ollie may not be Mr Aston Villa, but he’s an honest player with not a bad word to say about the club. So unless some elite striker comes along, he holds his place. Can’t stand that guy…. I would choose Ollie over him every time… we should be more supportive of our own players too and not look down on them so much… especially the ones that have given us so much service… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, PaulC said: It's a long season. All players find it hard to maintain their top standards every game. I think he's a player that feeds off other players being at the top of their game too. The fact there's no challenge for his position can also lead to complacency too. With regard to comparisons to Toney. The difference Is toney has the confidence and swagger about him. He knows hes too good for Btentford but it might be different if he plsyed for an Arsenal I think this is key and something more/most of us need to understand… a long season will usually have various ups and downs… no one can be constantly amazing/brilliant… we will be back and impress again… and, worth considering, the majority (if not all) of our players are not used to these lofty heights… they have no experience of performing and competing at such a high level as they are now… but Unai has it sorted and… we have incredible players like Martinez… I expect Ollie to be banging in the goals again soon…(Unai has plenty of faith in him too, that should be good enough for all of us) and hopefully getting the praise he deserves… I appreciate his commitment too… Edited January 28 by Jas10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 19 hours ago, ChesterDad said: You surprise TRO - you are clearly a very knowledgable person - but you are not concerned by Ollie’s technical abilities ? Surely this is the main talking point when discussing all things Ollie? In my humble opinion - his lack of technical ability is the reason, why he will never quite bridge the gap to being an elite striker - very good, but not elite.? Thank you for the endorsement.....but No, I stand by my claim. Gray and Withe, was not particulalry technically gifted in the sense we are talking.....they have to have some technical ability sure.....but IMO, what was central to them scoring goals, was intrinsic motivation. I think that is where Toney scores over Ollie too......sure there are games, where my claim may seem harsh, but he is not consistently aggressive in his play. I accept other opinions, and yours is welcome. I just happen to believe, scrapping, particulalry in the box, creates chaos, and the very chances, opportunist goal scorers thrive on.......defenders want to be organised, chaos is their worst nightmare......sometimes that has to be created. Edited January 28 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChesterDad Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 13 hours ago, DJBOB said: Plus how much would VT like Toney with the way he’s twerking for one of the Sky 6 to take him? Ollie may not be Mr Aston Villa, but he’s an honest player with not a bad word to say about the club. So unless some elite striker comes along, he holds his place. You are absolutley correct and I doubt there are many who would argue with you, it’s only right however that on a forum people are allowed to voice their concerns, and Ollie’s first touch I’m afraid will come under scrutiny from time to time. Ollie is very highly thought of by most Villa fans - but this does not excuse him from fans voicing their opinions I don’t think 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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