Ollie Watkins

[nick76]

57 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think he's been average to good for every game bar Liverpool. 

He's got 8 key passes (second on the team to Digne)

He's got 3 goal creating actions (leads the team - Diaby is second with 2)

He's got 12 shot creating actions (3rd on the team - Luiz with 14 and Digne with 13)

Clearly not been on the score sheet but I'm always puzzled at what people expect out of him. This is the same Ollie that has been here for all these years. Team player, so so finisher.

I can’t agree he’s been average to good in the others but that’s just differing opinions.

I think the last paragraph is key, he is the same player that has been here for all the years.  He’s always had good streaks and bad streaks and that was my point.

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

If we're at a point when we're going to push on and get UCL aspirations and replace Ollie for 80M+ (which is what I believe is to be required) then I'm all for it, but the squad needs filling out in every direction before Ollie.

I’m not looking to replace him, I’m wanting an alternative because he has poor periods and we need an option and even Emery has mentioned it a couple times that we need another striker for competition and that was after we had brought Duran.

50 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I don't think that's a myth at all.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then.

50 minutes ago, bobzy said:

He's just not an issue at all.  As @Pinebro says, he's one of the first names on the teamsheet.

The issue is not him but having an alternative quality option for a variety reasons.  

It’s the only outfield position that doesn’t have a senior quality alternative starter.  

That’s also one of the reasons he’s one of the first names on the team sheet because he’s the only option we have whether he is playing poor or excellent to start the game in the striker role.  

Now if you are saying he’s one of our best players then I have a fair few players ahead of him imo.

[bobzy]

11 minutes ago, nick76 said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree then.

The issue is not him but having an alternative quality option for a variety reasons.  

It’s the only outfield position that doesn’t have a senior quality alternative starter.  

That’s also one of the reasons he’s one of the first names on the team sheet because he’s the only option we have whether he is playing poor or excellent to start the game in the striker role.  

Now if you are saying he’s one of our best players then I have a fair few players ahead of him imo.

OK, sure.  I showed how he helps out in 50% of goals, you just dismiss it

 

The rest is fine, but he gets way more criticism than many other players from certain people (including you; not P-on-P just how it is!).

Not sure about "best player", but certainly one of the most important.  I think he's very much completely suited to how we set up and play football - which is why we had barely any links or interest in a centre forward/striker during the window.  Watkins is absolutely the main man.  As an example, I'd say Luiz may well be considered to be a "better player" but he's less important to how we set up.  He can be replaced relatively effectively (albeit with a drop in quality) whereas there simply aren't many forwards out there who operate as Watkins does.

[nick76]

24 minutes ago, bobzy said:

OK, sure.  I showed how he helps out in 50% of goals, you just dismiss it

 

The rest is fine, but he gets way more criticism than many other players from certain people (including you; not P-on-P just how it is!).

Not sure about "best player", but certainly one of the most important.  I think he's very much completely suited to how we set up and play football - which is why we had barely any links or interest in a centre forward/striker during the window.  Watkins is absolutely the main man.  As an example, I'd say Luiz may well be considered to be a "better player" but he's less important to how we set up.  He can be replaced relatively effectively (albeit with a drop in quality) whereas there simply aren't many forwards out there who operate as Watkins does.

Yeah I agree I am critical of him occasionally and no issue with you saying that and you may believe it’s over criticism.  My criticism though is more at the club not having a senior alternative like we do in every other position.  

As for the more important player, that’s harder to judge.  As you say there are better players in the team than Ollie.  I think it’s hard to say who is more important and if they can be more easily replaceable and thus I dispute your Luiz example for a number of reasons from replace ability and cog needed in the team.

I like Ollie, I’m just not as sold as many on him.  I think he’s an important part of the team, works well in our team but just looks so good when he’s on his good performance streak that when he’s in his poor performance streak he’s just so frustrating and the drop off is markedly bigger than most players.  That I can deal with because when he’s good he’s excellent but when he’s not, the club haven’t acquired an alternative senior option and that could be a difference maker for our season.

[Tom13]

21 hours ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

I really like Watkins but let us not think he cannot be improved upon.

Perhaps he has it in his game to improve himself, we shall see.

I have a feeling the next big transfer we make will be in that position. Rumours were that Villa were in for Abrahams, who knows? 

Tbf Abraham would be a huge disappointment. Poor all-round game that was clear as day even at Championship level.

[FLVillan]

19 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

Tbf Abraham would be a huge disappointment. Poor all-round game that was clear as day even at Championship level.

I agree with this.  Tammy was brilliant in terms of his goalscoring output at championship level for us, but at every other stage of his career he has been far less prolific.  Also, as you said, he's not got a great all round game in terms of pressing, back-to-goal, link-up play etc. In fact, I'd say he's very similar to Archer albeit more experienced. Good finisher, but doesn't offer much else.

[welshvillan]

7 minutes ago, FLVillan said:

I agree with this.  Tammy was brilliant in terms of his goalscoring output at championship level for us, but at every other stage of his career he has been far less prolific.  Also, as you said, he's not got a great all round game in terms of pressing, back-to-goal, link-up play etc. In fact, I'd say he's very similar to Archer albeit more experienced. Good finisher, but doesn't offer much else.

This for me.

I am interested to see how he does for Sheff... Defo worth a tenner on him scoring against us in either fixture 

[Tom13]

42 minutes ago, FLVillan said:

I agree with this.  Tammy was brilliant in terms of his goalscoring output at championship level for us, but at every other stage of his career he has been far less prolific.  Also, as you said, he's not got a great all round game in terms of pressing, back-to-goal, link-up play etc. In fact, I'd say he's very similar to Archer albeit more experienced. Good finisher, but doesn't offer much else.

I need to see more of Archer to make a judgement on his allround game, but he's certainly a better finisher and striker of the ball than Tammy IMO. With Tammy, I never understood how a player who failed to strike the ball cleanly so often scored so many

[Demitri_C]

18 hours ago, nick76 said:

Yeah I agree I am critical of him occasionally and no issue with you saying that and you may believe it’s over criticism.  My criticism though is more at the club not having a senior alternative like we do in every other position.  

As for the more important player, that’s harder to judge.  As you say there are better players in the team than Ollie.  I think it’s hard to say who is more important and if they can be more easily replaceable and thus I dispute your Luiz example for a number of reasons from replace ability and cog needed in the team.

I like Ollie, I’m just not as sold as many on him.  I think he’s an important part of the team, works well in our team but just looks so good when he’s on his good performance streak that when he’s in his poor performance streak he’s just so frustrating and the drop off is markedly bigger than most players.  That I can deal with because when he’s good he’s excellent but when he’s not, the club haven’t acquired an alternative senior option and that could be a difference maker for our season.

Kind of where im 

Veey hit and miss for me ans not very consistent 

[paul514]

Give me sport say Chelsea are interested in him in January 

[TomC]

2 hours ago, paul514 said:

Give me sport say Chelsea are interested in him in January 

Why would Ollie want to go to a club that finished behind us last year and that will probably finish behind us this year?

The next decade of Chelsea is probably going to look like the last decade of Man U since Ferguson retired. They'll have some good years but aren't going to be the force they were.

 

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, TomC said:

Why would Ollie want to go to a club that finished behind us last year and that will probably finish behind us this year?

The next decade of Chelsea is probably going to look like the last decade of Man U since Ferguson retired. They'll have some good years but aren't going to be the force they were.

Because football doesn't work like that

[Follyfoot]

2 hours ago, TomC said:

Why would Ollie want to go to a club that finished behind us last year and that will probably finish behind us this year?

The next decade of Chelsea is probably going to look like the last decade of Man U since Ferguson retired. They'll have some good years but aren't going to be the force they were.

 

6 year contract at 300k plus a week

[Tomaszk]

If he won't sign a contract we're happy with I actually wonder if we might even be trying to sell him.

[villan95]

 

 

[paul514]

I’d be a fan of selling him for the 70m mentioned. It’s definitely more than he is worth for his talent, age and contract length

[david-avfc]

On 07/09/2023 at 16:59, nick76 said:

I’m not looking to replace him, I’m wanting an alternative because he has poor periods and we need an option and even Emery has mentioned it a couple times that we need another striker for competition and that was after we had brought Duran.

The issue is not him but having an alternative quality option for a variety reasons.  

It’s the only outfield position that doesn’t have a senior quality alternative starter.  

That’s also one of the reasons he’s one of the first names on the team sheet because he’s the only option we have whether he is playing poor or excellent to start the game in the striker role.  

Now if you are saying he’s one of our best players then I have a fair few players ahead of him imo.

The issue with a “senior alternative” is that we’ve already had one, Danny Ings, and he was detrimental to the side. Having 2 first choice strikers meant we were constantly tweaking formations trying to fit them both in but we could never land on a style which suited both, either together as a partnership or individually. Emery saw the problem straight away and shipped Ings out at the first opportunity, and by just focusing on a system which got the best out of Watkins the team immediately improved.

If Watkins was injured then it would be a serious problem, but that would be the same for nearly all PL sides if they lost their main striker. As a rotation option Duran is decent and Diaby could also fill in.

[villa4europe]

10 minutes ago, paul514 said:

I’d be a fan of selling him for the 70m mentioned. It’s definitely more than he is worth for his talent, age and contract length

The fact that the likes of utd and Chelsea are linked with him shows what the market is right now

I wouldn't want to sell him for £100m because I don't actually like our chances of successfully replacing him, same with spurs, they've pushed Son further upfront and replaced him maddison haven't they? They haven't spent the money directly replacing Kane because other than him at juve or at a push him at PSV there's very little out there

Still think he'll sign the deal, this is his agent fishing

Edited September 10, 2023 by villa4europe

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, david-avfc said:

The issue with a “senior alternative” is that we’ve already had one, Danny Ings, and he was detrimental to the side. Having 2 first choice strikers meant we were constantly tweaking formations trying to fit them both in but we could never land on a style which suited both, either together as a partnership or individually. Emery saw the problem straight away and shipped Ings out at the first opportunity, and by just focusing on a system which got the best out of Watkins the team immediately improved.

If Watkins was injured then it would be a serious problem, but that would be the same for nearly all PL sides if they lost their main striker. As a rotation option Duran is decent and Diaby could also fill in.

Excluding whether I agree with you or not, still goes back to the position that when Ollie is on one of his poor streaks where does leave us.  Small margins make major differences.  

Also one player shouldn’t be dictating our squad needs, we have serious quality alternatives in every other outfield position so do we not care about players we started with there, we only worry about Ollie’s fragile feelings. I’d also argue that Ollie was out of sorts re you point of Ings being around was also almost the same duration as Gerrard being around so I’m not totally convinced it was all down to Ings presence but more Gerrard’s influence, coaching and tactical decisions.

[Tom13]

If there is genuine interest fair enough. But he'd flop at United and Chelsea.

[Zatman]

33 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

If there is genuine interest fair enough. But he'd flop at United and Chelsea.

Would he?

Since bigger name strikers have flopped at these teams maybe Ollie be just fine