Formula One - 2020

[BOF]

8 minutes ago, Genie said:

If you took Lewis out, then VB would continue to out perform MV as his car is much quicker, and the points gap would be larger because of the +7’s rather than +3’s.

Being the main driver Bottas would be out in front more and qualify on pole more too based on recent form. He’d probably get more bonus points for fastest lap too, again because of the superiority of the car and the fact he’s in clear air.

I don’t think Bottas is getting any benefit from Lewis being number 1 in his battle to be best of the rest. 

I missed this post, apologies! I disagree fwiw   I think you have some good points but I don't think it's the full picture.

[OutByEaster?]

46 minutes ago, BOF said:

Yeah they're good hypotheticals but that's also only painting a partial scenario.  Go further. If you put Hamilton in the Red Bull alongside Max, and you put Albon in the Merc, who then wins between Max and Bottas? Because then it's Red Bull who have the luxury of the strategy splits and Bottas has the intangible pressure of having to run at the front unaided by a teammate and bombarded by another team.  For me, the only scenario where Bottas beats Max is the current one where Bottas has a formidable teammate and Max doesn't have one.

I think if there was one Red Bull and one Merc with Bottas in the Merc and Man int he Red Bull, over a season Bottas wins - and I think Max is the better driver.

Edit: and actually in the situation you proposed Bottas wins because Max and Hamilton would make life very difficult for each other.

 

[YouUnastanFren]

30 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think if there was one Red Bull and one Merc with Bottas in the Merc and Man int he Red Bull, over a season Bottas wins - and I think Max is the better driver.

I think it depends on how that would effect the likelihood of Max having a DNF. He's had the beating of Bottas all season when both finish. Without HAM he'd be off in clear air away from danger much more often, he has been on the podium every time he's finished this season other than Turkey I think.

[Genie]

14 minutes ago, YouUnastanFren said:

I think it depends on how that would effect the likelihood of Max having a DNF. He's had the beating of Bottas all season when both finish. Without HAM he'd be off in clear air away from danger much more often, he has been on the podium every time he's finished this season other than Turkey I think.

Where both finished Bottas beat Max in Austria, Belgium, Russia and Portugal.

Max beat Bottas in Hungary, UK, Spain & Bahrain.

[YouUnastanFren]

10 minutes ago, Genie said:

Where both finished Bottas beat Max in Austria, Belgium, Russia and Portugal.

Max beat Bottas in Hungary, UK, Spain & Bahrain.

I can't remember every race this season but Max was 2nd in Austria when he had a mechanical issue IIRC. I thought he retired but he could well have just limped round and finished

Edit - Never mind, just realised there were 2 races at the RB ring this year. I understand now

Looking at it though, the races when Bottas was ahead it was 1 place maximum most of the time but the other way round it was a big gap several times.

I really feel like with the pressure of fighting for a title the cars are close enough for Max to take Bottas over a season in a world without HAM

Edited December 7, 2020 by YouUnastanFren

[mikeyp102]

I actually think part of the reason the Mercedes car is so good is because they Lewis. The top drivers help improve the car as they know what works on the track and what doesn’t. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by mikeyp102

[BOF]

1 hour ago, mikeyp102 said:

I actually think part of the reason the Mercedes car is so good is because they Lewis. The top drivers help improve the car as they know what works on the track and what doesn’t. 

Of course it is. Lewis is one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time. People say it's the car while ignoring that the sister car in Bottas' hands is one good race ahead of Verstappen's Red Bull. Lewis may be taking wins away from Valtteri but he's taking wins away from Max aswell. It's only in Lewis' hands that the Merc is streets ahead. And Bottas is not some 2-bit pay driver.

And at the risk (no, the guarantee...) of repeating myself, Merc don't want or need to entertain the possibility that their car would win the title in Lewis's absence because, however small, there exists the possibility that it wouldn't. Certainly not 7 in a row any way. What they have in Lewis is the guarantee of the Championship. Everything else increases the possibility that they wouldn't. And that goes for all the intangibles too. Lewis brings far more than what he does on a Sunday.

[welnik]

7 minutes ago, BOF said:

Of course it is. Lewis is one of the greatest F1 drivers of all time. People say it's the car while ignoring that the sister car in Bottas' hands is one good race ahead of Verstappen's Red Bull. Lewis may be taking wins away from Valtteri but he's taking wins away from Max aswell. It's only in Lewis' hands that the Merc is streets ahead. And Bottas is not some 2-bit pay driver.

And at the risk (no, the guarantee...) of repeating myself, Merc don't want or need to entertain the possibility that their car would win the title in Lewis's absence because, however small, there exists the possibility that it wouldn't. Certainly not 7 in a row any way. What they have in Lewis is the guarantee of the Championship. Everything else increases the possibility that they wouldn't. And that goes for all the intangibles too. Lewis brings far more than what he does on a Sunday.

Is the right answer!

[Stevo985]

The other way to look at it is why WOULDN'T Mercedes have Lewis hamilton?

They can obviously afford his salary. They're not short of money. They have the best car on the grid, comfortably. Why wouldn't they want the best driver to drive it?

They might save £10m a year by getting someone else who might win the championship too, but why would they?

[BOF]

And the whole discussion above is only relevant with Max in a Red Bull because he is a stupendous driver. I think he is masking the deficiencies of a not particularly fast racecar. I think the real pace of the Red Bull is closer to what all of Verstappen's teammates can get out of it. I think he is wringing silly times week in week out and is artificially keeping the Championship closer than anyone else would. But that's what Merc are up against. The fact is it is a Max Verstappen biting at their heels. There will always be the next generational talent battling you or just around the corner or out of sight, and if Red Bull can give Max anything approaching the Merc next season then Max will take it to the next level. I think he's the fastest driver in the field and is probably the most naturally gifted F1 driver since Ayrton Senna. All IMHO of course.

[Genie]

10 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

The other way to look at it is why WOULDN'T Mercedes have Lewis hamilton?

They can obviously afford his salary. They're not short of money. They have the best car on the grid, comfortably. Why wouldn't they want the best driver to drive it?

They might save £10m a year by getting someone else who might win the championship too, but why would they?

Absolutely agree. If HQ keep stumping up £40m a year for his wages then I’d also spend it on him.

Only potential risk, like we saw in 2008 is if these manufacturer teams have to save money on their core vehicle production it might not be good PR to be paying one employee that kind of money but then lay off thousands of others. 

Toyota and Honda pulled out of F1 in the wake of the last financial disaster. I assume Mercedes are in good financial heath though as there hasn’t been any talk of them getting a reduced budget.
 

[BOF]

Well there was noise of wage caps in the new financial agreement. It doesn't preclude higher wages, but it would mean the extra coming out of other areas of development. It'll be interesting to see if the teams agree to adopt that model.

[Genie]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

Well there was noise of wage caps in the new financial agreement. It doesn't preclude higher wages, but it would mean the extra coming out of other areas of development. It'll be interesting to see if the teams agree to adopt that model.

I can’t see how that would work. Same as wage caps in football. 

[BOF]

17 minutes ago, Genie said:

I can’t see how that would work. Same as wage caps in football. 

The theory is : Team budget for everything bar wages is let's say ~200m a year (it's not that but we'll use that figure). You can also pay your driver up to 10m a year outside of the 200m. If you want to pay your driver 30m a year then the extra 20m needs to come out of the 200m.  It's only 20 drivers so controlling it is far easier than football wage caps which cross countries and different federations. Much easier to control a closed environment like F1.

But anyway that's the theory. It hasn't been ratified yet.

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, BOF said:

The theory is : Team budget for everything bar wages is let's say ~200m a year (it's not that but we'll use that figure). You can also pay your driver up to 10m a year outside of the 200m. If you want to pay your driver 30m year then the extra 20m needs to come out of the 200m.  It's only 20 drivers so controlling it is far easier than football wage caps which cross countries and different federations. Much easier to control a closed environment like F1.

But anyway that's the theory. It hasn't been ratified yet.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Maybe it could work then. Teams can pay what they want, but they’d need to offset high earners elsewhere in the budget.
 

[BOF]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Maybe it could work then. Teams can pay what they want, but they’d need to offset high earners elsewhere in the budget.
 

Zakly

[OutByEaster?]

I guess the difficulty would come in when SMART pay Lewis $20m to advertise their cars on TV.

Nothing to do with him driving for Mercedes, who own SMART, but just because he's a great F1 driver.

I think it'd be difficult to police.

 

 

[BOF]

Might there be changes afoot already?

Valtteri Bottas removes Mercedes from Instagram bio as George Russell also makes change

Quote

Valtteri Bottas removes Mercedes from Instagram bio as George Russell also makes change

Valtteri Bottas and George Russell have made changes to their Instagram bios.

F1 fans think Valtteri Bottas and George Russell may be swapping seats in 2021 as the pair have recently changed their Instagram bios. Both men are under contract with their current manufacturers for the 2021 campaign.

Russell's impressive performance stepping in for Lewis Hamilton at the Sakhir Grand Prix has seen his stock rise ten-fold.

The 22-year-old should have secured his maiden F1 victory but for a horrific double-stacked pit stop followed by a late puncture. There have been strong suggestions that Russell will end up in a Mercedes seat in the near future. However, supporters think that could happen sooner rather than later. Last month Bottas' Instagram bio had a tag to Mercedes' F1 account - but that has since been deleted. Meanwhile, Russell has also removed all mention of Williams from his bio, which now just reads: "Formula 1 Driver."

More in the link ...

Well well well.  I'm loathe to share a **** Daily Express article, but it's a fun silly season idea no less.  It would be a bit of a shock if things were to move that quickly, but I can't deny it would probably be the right thing for Mercedes to do from a driver development perspective.

[YouUnastanFren]

Grosjean's insta has been hacked recently, could this just be something similar?

Good popcorn.gif entertainment either way.

[OutByEaster?]

Putting Russell in as Hamilton's number two might be damaging to Russell in the long run - Hamilton won't welcome a challenge from within the team and the team will most likely ensure that Hamilton is happy and looked after in the number one car - two years of that might well take a toll on the younger driver.