smg Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) 57 minutes ago, thabucks said: Sell sell sell whilst he is at his peak value. Can see him at Leeds or back at Boro but he’s simply not good enough for where we are now and where we wanna be. Not good enough for we are now and where we wanna be ………….. the new villa chant Edited August 3, 2023 by smg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 Disregarding the penalty, but simple/straightforward question: How many chances have been created for him and how many has he missed or F’d up? Needs to play with the better attacking/creative players to show what he can do… 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 23 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Disregarding the penalty, but simple/straightforward question: How many chances have been created for him and how many has he missed or F’d up? Needs to play with the better attacking/creative players to show what he can do… Problem is, he plays in a team set up to play for Ollie. But he's not an Ollie type of player, more of an Ings than an Ollie. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCollins29 Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 I'm absolutely convinced he is good enough - has not had a proper chance in the PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted August 3, 2023 Author Share Posted August 3, 2023 2 hours ago, Delphinho123 said: Never seen anything special from him tbh. Very good finisher but all round game just isn’t there. He might make it one day, but we’re not in a great place if Watkins gets injured this season. I don’t rate Duran either. He got 6 assists in half a season at Boro and his movement was why Akpom went on a goalscoring spree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny_Villaman84 Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 (edited) both is different class and type players, if we supply Archer we need set him right lay to running to shot, or area to finish inside box - Archer will better choice. like 75-25 chance to finish. watkins more like 50-50. Watkins better work rugged bully defender and press them into misplace or under pressure opponent, keep running in channel to pull defender away as he got pace to attack running; go wide that channel to attack in the middle area to finish; so Watkins better job to open other player to attack other gap this why he is very very good this job compare to Archer only let him down is finisher on his good day he is lethal finisher; on bad day he still did good job but unlethal finisher yet still open space for other player to attack to finish. this reason is our first choice striker regardless.. if we find same play as him with consist finisher and high possibility to goal from 1 vs 1 so we need replace him with watkins back up. "uno" reverse card; if he do Archer roles he will bit struggle in premiership (remember he did good job boro i think level is might issues yet he still young and plenty to learn) but he does capacity do this, which watkins is a reason better man job. if Archer do watkins job; which he still long to go; he is all to need do training and learn this roles which is never too late for him as the coach work with him so good back up also he is young, so he potential to better player as Watkins also better finish in couple years so best keep him as first team also give him regular chance in high level or cup he will rapid development in my opinion. same issues Ings and Watkins style last years, Ings is need match regular as he is prime and his age should play regular (which Archer still young and learned, coach by Emery and his coach team will ideal) that why he should keep with us and give him chance. Edited August 3, 2023 by Danny_Villaman84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny_Villaman84 Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 also other issues with him, if Archer with better creative behind as watkins has in friendly match, like one match catch my eyes i not sure which match 1/3 he got great creative behind him, i think it is newcastle; newcastle cant cope with him as he got good supply creative force support him. 2/3 match i think it was vs brentford and fulham he is with poor creative force not suit emery style behind him that explain why he is quiet, might I'm wrong. we need give him chance with better creative force behind him might see result; question is when we see this happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 3, 2023 Share Posted August 3, 2023 Doubtful it’s going to happen now but… I’d like to see how Archer does with at least Buendia supporting him… would he be better at taking on those through balls and finishing them (with aplomb)? I think it would be an exciting link up or partnership… and would Cam be more “capable” than Ollie in that specific regard? Does he have more of a natural goalscorers instinct and touch? I’d like to find out… No doubt that there’s a lot more to Ollie’s game and that why he’s so important and our no. 1 CF… we don’t have anyone in the squad close to or comparable to him in that sense… However…. I actually think his “duties” have been lessened and reduced as compared to when Dean was here, for example… we have a much better team so he doesn’t have to work so hard and drift… his main job and priority is being in the right place at the right time to finish off the chances that are created for him… Unai has provided him with the greatest “support act” (not just one player) that he will have had now and he isn’t required to do so much… Unai has talked sense into him too and will continue to bring the best out of him, he’ll surely get more than 15 goals this season… It’s pleasing to see how much less reliant we are on individuals and how much more of and stronger (and better, especially in our passing and control of games) a team we are overall… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 As much as most agree in the drop-off in quality from Martinez to Olsen, it could be argued that there is an equal disparity in quality from Watkins to Archer. I’m not basing that purely on ability but the question that should be the test as to whether Cam is good enough to deputise for Ollie is: As of right now would he be able to play and score in the PL effectively in a 10 game spell should OW get injured? Personally, I don’t think he is at that level yet (clearly has the potential to get there in the future). I am convinced that UE/Monchi will bring in another attacker who can play as a 9 before the end of the window. If I can see this with my totally unprofessional and inexperienced eyes then Unai will certainly recognise this issue. The flip side to that argument being that Unai has seen enough in Cam to believe he CAN deputise for Ollie in the PL across numerous games if required…..he has said that Cam and Furan will be back up but I think this is more about maintaining their confidence levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheltenham_villa Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 2 hours ago, eholm said: As much as most agree in the drop-off in quality from Martinez to Olsen, it could be argued that there is an equal disparity in quality from Watkins to Archer. I’m not basing that purely on ability but the question that should be the test as to whether Cam is good enough to deputise for Ollie is: As of right now would he be able to play and score in the PL effectively in a 10 game spell should OW get injured? Personally, I don’t think he is at that level yet (clearly has the potential to get there in the future). I am convinced that UE/Monchi will bring in another attacker who can play as a 9 before the end of the window. If I can see this with my totally unprofessional and inexperienced eyes then Unai will certainly recognise this issue. The flip side to that argument being that Unai has seen enough in Cam to believe he CAN deputise for Ollie in the PL across numerous games if required…..he has said that Cam and Furan will be back up but I think this is more about maintaining their confidence levels. I had been thinking very similarly. The drop from Wakins to Archer is large, particularly because we are a team set up to play to Watkins and Archer is a very different type of player. I dont think hes been bad in pre season, I just think the boro move may have set a high bar. In reality though when you are in a good championship side, you do get 2 or 3 good chances, particularly when players like Akpom or dominating defences. From there to largely playing up front on your own and having to do a lot of work outside the box against better quality defences is a huge step. Personally i still think he would benefit from a full year in the championship or prem where is the main striker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reivax_Villa Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 I think that he will come alive in the cup competitions and eventually take his chance in a premier league match.. He has built his fitness up and is getting familiar with the players around him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinebro Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 9 hours ago, Jas10 said: Disregarding the penalty, but simple/straightforward question: How many chances have been created for him and how many has he missed or F’d up? Needs to play with the better attacking/creative players to show what he can do… He can't just be a box striker at this level if he wants to make it. Needs to get more involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Pinebro said: He can't just be a box striker at this level if he wants to make it. Needs to get more involved Sure, it’s why I pointed out Ollie is easily/obviously the right/better option for us but I still don’t see Cam as having had a great opportunity nor deserving of much criticism after a few friendly minutes and playing with “lesser players”… He got a fair few assists at Boro and was involved in their play… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 11 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said: I had been thinking very similarly. The drop from Wakins to Archer is large, particularly because we are a team set up to play to Watkins and Archer is a very different type of player. I dont think hes been bad in pre season, I just think the boro move may have set a high bar. In reality though when you are in a good championship side, you do get 2 or 3 good chances, particularly when players like Akpom or dominating defences. From there to largely playing up front on your own and having to do a lot of work outside the box against better quality defences is a huge step. Personally i still think he would benefit from a full year in the championship or prem where is the main striker. As you say very different profiles of CF. Still think there's a place for Archer in the squad as ECL games will be very beneficial for him...its just the PL that worries me. Duran appears to be more similar to Ollie but waaaaaay too raw at the moment. Duran in more need of a loan at this stage imo. Unai must be looking at a forward who has similarities to Ollie...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Sure, it’s why I pointed out Ollie is easily/obviously the right/better option for us but I still don’t see Cam as having had a great opportunity nor deserving of much criticism after a few friendly minutes and playing with “lesser players”… He got a fair few assists at Boro and was involved in their play… I see your point....but would you be comfortable with Archer as CF should Ollie be injured for, say, 10 games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 2 hours ago, eholm said: As much as most agree in the drop-off in quality from Martinez to Olsen, it could be argued that there is an equal disparity in quality from Watkins to Archer. I’m not basing that purely on ability but the question that should be the test as to whether Cam is good enough to deputise for Ollie is: As of right now would he be able to play and score in the PL effectively in a 10 game spell should OW get injured? Personally, I don’t think he is at that level yet (clearly has the potential to get there in the future). I am convinced that UE/Monchi will bring in another attacker who can play as a 9 before the end of the window. If I can see this with my totally unprofessional and inexperienced eyes then Unai will certainly recognise this issue. The flip side to that argument being that Unai has seen enough in Cam to believe he CAN deputise for Ollie in the PL across numerous games if required…..he has said that Cam and Furan will be back up but I think this is more about maintaining their confidence levels. Yeah I have to agree, despite Unai’s comments. He’s always respectful in his words anyway and has to give an answer to direct questions… I mean, to give a couple of examples, he’s spoken positively about Sanson and Young and… neither of them are at the club anymore I am struggling to believe that Archer and Duran are actually going to be our back up/cover to Ollie this season… I actually expect a “senior” player (Diaby?), or even a new signing, to provide the actual cover.., But let’s see… would be nice if they could surprise us. Duran hasn’t had a chance (injury) to show what he can do during preseason either… I wouldn’t rule out a loan move though… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 1 minute ago, eholm said: I see your point....but would you be comfortable with Archer as CF should Ollie be injured for, say, 10 games? Not at this point no, but I can’t really say whether Cam is capable because I don’t feel I’ve seen enough of him… To be totally honest, I want us to strengthen the team/squad as much as possible, to allow Unai to take us as far as he can and achieve as much as possible this season, even if it’s at the “expense” of a few youngsters… I know some people won’t like or be onboard with that, I’m just a bit ambitious and aware that Unai is too - his “real aim” for us is CL football, as well as trophies, asap (reading and hearing various comments and interviews, such as a face to face discussion with Luis Echegaray…) But… if Unai deems the “kids” worthy, then I’m all for it… and I would like to see them given a fair crack… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Yeah I have to agree, despite Unai’s comments. He’s always respectful in his words anyway and has to give an answer to direct questions… I mean, to give a couple of examples, he’s spoken positively about Sanson and Young and… neither of them are at the club anymore I am struggling to believe that Archer and Duran are actually going to be our back up/cover to Ollie this season… I actually expect a “senior” player (Diaby?), or even a new signing, to provide the actual cover.., But let’s see… would be nice if they could surprise us. Duran hasn’t had a chance (injury) to show what he can do during preseason either… I wouldn’t rule out a loan move though… 100% mate - good man management form UE as per normal. It would be great if one of them could step up but at this stage its unlikley imo. Regards Diaby, again he's for the wrong profile for me to be deputising for OW for any signifcant period of time. Wouldnt bet against a CF/Forward signing/loan very late in the window.....maybe Torres or somoene of that ilk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 Archer won't be a direct replacement for Watkins, they're completely different type of players, CA is no more lilie Watkins than Louie Barry is, as it stands Duran will be Watkins replacement unless we sign someone else. Archer is more of a wide forward, or second striker, he always has been, not sure why this constantly gets ignored, he's never had a run of games as the main striker, in any of our academy teams, or out on loan, in theory he might be able to play as a Vardy type but other than the odd game here and there he hasn't had much practice in that role. If we have games where we need a goal and he comes on to play alongside Watkins then we will probably see the best side of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 Just now, eholm said: 100% mate - good man management form UE as per normal. It would be great if one of them could step up but at this stage its unlikley imo. Regards Diaby, again he's for the wrong profile for me to be deputising for OW for any signifcant period of time. Wouldnt bet against a CF/Forward signing/loan very late in the window.....maybe Torres or somoene of that ilk. Yeah, I agree with what you said regarding confidence levels, it’s just smart. I’d say the same applies for Olsen too. What benefit is there to criticising or being dismissive of your players? And if moves don’t work out, you’re stuck with demotivated and underperforming ones… The class and intelligence of Unai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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