Dean Smith

[M_Afro]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

Against Watford we had 3rd/4th choice wingers around a striker who had been training with the team for a week. Anyone expecting that to click straight away is expecting way too much.

Now the performance was awful and there were other issues but we had serious key players missing.

Our strongest team would include at least 3 from Luiz, Bailey, Traore and Watkins. Do you not think having those players fully fit would make a difference? 

That’s all true but why then play a 4-2-3-1? That was Dean’s decision. We could easily have gone 5-3-2 or 4-3-3. That would have totally mitigated the need to play AEG as a right winger, Buendia as a traditional 10 and Young as a left winger! Neither systems are perfect with our available players but both would have provided greater control in the game.

Anyway, that one’s dead now. Hopefully Dean learns from it, which he surely will. I expect a different set up today and a better performance. That’s all we can ask for. Hopefully the result will then follow. The atmosphere will certainly help too.

[DCJonah]

5 minutes ago, M_Afro said:

That’s all true but why then play a 4-2-3-1? That was Dean’s decision. We could easily have gone 5-3-2 or 4-3-3. That would have totally mitigated the need to play AEG as a right winger, Buendia as a traditional 10 and Young as a left winger! Neither systems are perfect with our available players but both would have provided greater control in the game.

Anyway, that one’s dead now. Hopefully Dean learns from it, which he surely will. I expect a different set up today and a better performance. That’s all we can ask for. Hopefully the result will then follow. The atmosphere will certainly help too.

Yep, in hindsight the original set up didn't work. 

But it happens. He's not going to make the right decision every single time. He adjusted early on and made changes at half time. 

[darrenm]

I think Dean is one of the best English managers around and I think when Southgate is replaced, the FA will have Dean near the top of their list.

My only minor criticisms are (and there's nothing to say I'm right, just a difference of opinion of approach):

He seems to favour keeping the same shape and personnel every game over countering the threat of the opposition. Other managers seem to counter our threats while Dean seems to hope or expect that them having to worry more about our threats will give us the edge. Like today, I think it's worth sacrificing a midfielder just to sit on Newcastle's only threat: ASM. Teams did it with us and Grealish and it worked. Today I think ASM will have too much freedom and cause problems where instead we could shut him down and play 10v10 instead.

The other one is that he's not defensive enough when needed. Which sounds mad I know but sometimes, like with Watford, we needed to sit back and draw them out, then hit them on the break. Teams know they can get behind us because we'll always attack and leave space behind the midfield. If we kept compact, we stop those holes appearing and then can break at speed. It doesn't work against every team because they all have different approaches but the gung-ho, fast and physical teams like Leeds and Watford will always cause us problems by breaking quickly if we don't keep compact and soak them up. If we did the same to them, they'd have no answer.

It's all a game of chess though and I think you can get too bogged down in details of a French Defence when the best approach can just be to get your queen out taking pieces.

[Peter Griffin]

8 hours ago, QldVilla said:

Smith is now a very good PL manager and would be first on a manager list at any other mid/lower PL team if available.

Although I disagree that Smith would be first on a manager list for some other clubs, I think the fact that you add the caveat 'mid/lower' shows exactly the level you believe Smith is at.

 

8 hours ago, QldVilla said:

Your argument is based around whether he could be a Top 4 or win the PL manager and it’s currently an unrealistic expectation

That is not what my argument is about. My point about Smith is that I think he has weaknesses with team selection (36 yr old Ash starting), playing the correct players in their correct position (El Ghazi on the right), substitution timings (tend to be too late), plan B during a game and getting the youth players more involved.

He is getting better at some of these but I believe the grace period of giving him some time is over. He has had 3 years and it is now time to deliver. No excuses. I hope he works out but if he is not delivering he should be replaced imo

[Peter Griffin]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I'd love to know where you expected us to be at this point when he first got the job.

If I had known the level of support that NSWE were going to provide I would fully expect us to be in the PL. If we were not currently in the PL I expect Smith would not be our gaffer. I am not anti Smith. I really like the guy and think he was a brilliant appointment. But as a club we need to keep reevaluating our players and coaches and systems in place at Villa. If any are not keeping up with where they need to be then they need to go. That is not a dig at Smith.n That applies to every single person at the club. 

[DCJonah]

4 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Although I disagree that Smith would be first on a manager list for some other clubs, I think the fact that you add the caveat 'mid/lower' shows exactly the level you believe Smith is at.

 

That is not what my argument is about. My point about Smith is that I think he has weaknesses with team selection (36 yr old Ash starting), playing the correct players in their correct position (El Ghazi on the right), substitution timings (tend to be too late), plan B during a game and getting the youth players more involved.

He is getting better at some of these but I believe the grace period of giving him some time is over. He has had 3 years and it is now time to deliver. No excuses. I hope he works out but if he is not delivering he should be replaced imo

What does this mean? 

He's delivered everything expected of him and more. Do the last few years not count? 

I seriously can't understand where this kind of thinking is coming from. 

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said:

If I had known the level of support that NSWE were going to provide I would fully expect us to be in the PL. If we were not currently in the PL I expect Smith would not be our gaffer. I am not anti Smith. I really like the guy and think he was a brilliant appointment. But as a club we need to keep reevaluating our players and coaches and systems in place at Villa. If any are not keeping up with where they need to be then they need to go. That is not a dig at Smith.n That applies to every single person at the club. 

Agreed. But as I said above, he's done everything asked of him and then some. So until he fails to do that in the future, why is it even an issue? 

[Peter Griffin]

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Agreed. But as I said above, he's done everything asked of him and then some

And that is why he is still our Head Coach. But, we can't ignore how he achieved what he has done. We managed promotion via the playoffs. We need a 10 game winning run, looked poor without Jack and needed pens against the Baggies. We scraped staying up in our first season and can't deny the assistance of Goal Line Technology and a Covid break from football. Last season we had a great season but again too reliant on one player. Smith needs to show that he is able to build a team to compete in the top half of the PL. I am not expecting European qualification this season but I believe we should be finishing at least 10th. Anything lower will be underachievement imo

[DCJonah]

8 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

What do you find so hard to believe?

That after a great 3 years and a truly enjoyable time as a fan, you're so desperate to diminish anything he's achieved. 

You've actually used the fact he broke a club record winning streak as a negative. That's mind blowing. I think you've forgot the state we were in when he arrived that year. Everyone had given up on going up straight away. 

You've even done what rival fans did by bringing up the sheff u goal line incident. Again, mind blowing that a villa fan would use the same argument idiotic rival fans use to diminish the achievement of staying up first try. 

And the over reliance on Jack argument is ridiculous. Do people really believe any club similar to us wouldn't have done the same with a player like that? I love this idea that again, this is somehow a negative. 

[Peter Griffin]

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

That after a great 3 years and a truly enjoyable time as a fan, you're so desperate to diminish anything he's achieved. 

Where do you get that from? I think Smith has been brilliant for us and I am really happy that he became our gaffer and brought us on an incredible journey for the last 3 years. It has been great as a Villa fan. Maybe stick to the actual points I make rather than making up something that ins't true.

I am looking at Villa objectively and I assume and hope that NSWE and CP will also look at Villa objectively. We should not sit back and think that as we achieved promotion and PL safety over the last few years that we should be happy. We need to push forward and make Villa the best possible club it can be. Part of this process is to continually review the gaffer and assess if he is still the right man for the job. We also must assess how we performed over the last 3 years and assess how effective Smith was. It cannot be denied that our survival season was far too close for comfort. A dodgy VAR call or a VAR decision in West Ham's favour and we could have been back in the Championship. Sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring Smith's weaknesses is not the way forward imo

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said:

I am looking at Villa objectively and I assume and hope that NSWE and CP will also look at Villa objectively. We should not sit back and think that as we achieved promotion and PL safety over the last few years that we should be happy. We need to push forward and make Villa the best possible club it can be. Part of this process is to continually review the gaffer and assess if he is still the right man for the job. We also must assess how we performed over the last 3 years and assess how effective Smith was. It cannot be denied that our survival season was far too close for comfort. A dodgy VAR call or a VAR decision in West Ham's favour and we could have been back in the Championship. Sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring Smith's weaknesses is not the way forward imo

We shouldn't be happy that we've gone from midtable championship to midtable prem in 3 years? 

We should be looking to improve and progress and Dean should be evaluated. But that doesn't mean we have to take away from what he's achieved. 

I'll wait till he actually fails instead of trying to knock him for what he's done. 

I seriously doubt NSWE feel winning 10 games in a row and going up through the playoffs was a knock on Dean Smith as a manager. Yet you've used it as one.

[Peter Griffin]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

4 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

 

We shouldn't be happy that we've gone from midtable championship to midtable prem in 3 years? 

We should be looking to improve and progress and Dean should be evaluated. But that doesn't mean we have to take away from what he's achieved. 

I'll wait till he actually fails instead of trying to knock him for what he's done. 

I agree with that and I too am not knocking Smith. He has achieved at Villa and I am happy with that but as you say, he should be evaluated

[villalad21]

I still think DCJonah is traumatized by the late Lerner era and haven't fully recovered from that.

He still has that survival instinct deeply enrooted in him.

Time to move on. The ambitions are clear. European football. Smith have confirmed it's the target this season.

No, we shouldn't be happy with mid table. This isn't 2012

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

Didn’t you say this was a mid table squad though only recently? Just like a lot of people on this forum.

Doesn't mean I would be happy with mid table.

I've said I think we have a good enough squad to finish 10th and that's where I'd like for us to finish.

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

It's one game. 

I'm going to the first sell out game in 18 months. Its certainly all roses and vibrance from where I'm looking from. 

And that doesn't change, even with a slow start to the season. 

With these owners we are on the right path, even if at some point Dean isn't part of that journey. 

But as of right now, I can't see why anyone would be negative about this club. 

No one is negative about the club.

Some are not convinced by the manager still. That is it.

But I couldn't be happier with the club and how it's run.

Edited August 21, 2021 by villalad21

[Woody1000]

I’m just astounded by what I’ve read these last couple of pages. If Dean fails, I’m sure the club will do what they feel is necessary, but until then why don’t we all try and get behind him? He has met and overcome every challenge so far in his time here.

[Peter Griffin]

16 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Haha I can't believe after 1 game all the same negative ones are out in force. 

 

What is the problem with discussing Smith's weaknesses? It is not being negative, it is just discussing our club. It is like discussing Mings and saying he makes a few too many errors or saying Nakamba's passing could be improved or Bidace hasn't enough experience. It is just dealing with reality and discussing what could be done to improve our current position as a club. I assume you agree we can improve or do you believe Smith nor the players could do better than they are currently doing? 

[foreveryoung]

17 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Aren't you a teacher, @DCJonah? I'd have thought by now you'd understand the key to moving on from tantrums is not giving the attention that's so desperately wanted.

Explains alot! I know a few, treat everyone like one of there pupils. There right your wrong period!

[DCJonah]

5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Explains alot! I know a few, treat everyone like one of there pupils. There right your wrong period!

Their 

[DCJonah]

7 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

What is the problem with discussing Smith's weaknesses? It is not being negative, it is just discussing our club. It is like discussing Mings and saying he makes a few too many errors or saying Nakamba's passing could be improved or Bidace hasn't enough experience. It is just dealing with reality and discussing what could be done to improve our current position as a club. I assume you agree we can improve or do you believe Smith nor the players could do better than they are currently doing? 

It's not a major issue. Not sure why people are desperate to do it. 

But it's not really that. It's diminishing his achievements, claiming he needs to deliver, talking about him losing his job if he doesn't get europe.