John McGinn

[Peter Griffin]

7 minutes ago, MotoMkali said:

Maybe the guy who shouldn't have had his captaincy stripped in the first place. 

But clearly Gerrard doesn't want Mings as captain. We don't know the reasons behind this decision but we do know this is the decision. We have just got to live with that. So without Mings as captain who should it be? 

This thread looks more like an anti McGinn threat when it is actually appears to be a thread of not liking Mings losing the captaincy 

[ozvilla28]

I don’t even think his a regular starting 11 player at times very patchy in games goes missing alot always thought he was overated Martinez was the choice for me without a doubt screams leadership.

Edited July 27, 2022 by ozvilla28

[sne]

2 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

But clearly Gerrard doesn't want Mings as captain. We don't know the reasons behind this decision but we do know this is the decision. We have just got to live with that. So without Mings as captain who should it be? 

 

Bit of a pointless question since Gerrard choose McGinn. Obviously he wants McGinn and not someone else. All suggestions will be met with "Gerrard doesn't wan't (insert name) as captain.

[andym]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

Most tackles per game in the entire squad.
Wins the most free kicks in the entire squad.
Most successful dribbles in the entire squad.
More key passes per game than everyone but Digne.

And, additionally, against those who he is “up against” in a central midfield role:

More assists
More clearances per game
More interceptions per game
 

But apart from being the best central midfielder defensively and creatively, what did he really do for us last season?

I mean, theres loads of stats you can play around with.

Luiz only had 1 less goal and 1 less assist in less minutes; the per 90 stats are pretty much identical.

Luiz also had more goal creating actions, interceptions, and was dribbled past less per 90.

Mcginn miscontrolled the ball and was dispossessed more per game, and gave away more free kicks per game.

And of course one of the big ones is possession, and Mcginn is one of the worst 'standard' CMs in the whole league at keeping the ball.

I dont think anyone would disagree when he's on it, he can be highly effective - if the game turns into a high tempo track meet, you want him in the team.

But his style is always going to be high risk high reward, and that means you are never going to consistently control games if he's the 'first name on the teamsheet' CM.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by andym

[ozvillafan]

I like Mings. I think he probably should have retained the captaincy.

But there is little doubt (in my mind) that it affected his game last season. Smith said as much when he dropped him from the side early on last year.

Given that the area of the pitch which has the most issues is still our midfield, my concern is that McGinn's game might also be affected by the pressure that comes with the captaincy role. Not sure we can afford that.

[allani]

4 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

But clearly Gerrard doesn't want Mings as captain. We don't know the reasons behind this decision but we do know this is the decision. We have just got to live with that. So without Mings as captain who should it be? 

This thread looks more like an anti McGinn threat when it is actually appears to be a thread of not liking Mings losing the captaincy 

The problem it highlights is that we don't have enough "leaders" in the squad.  I don't object to Mings losing the captaincy (I think he does need to focus more on his own game).  Our trouble for the last couple of seasons has been that our three of the four parts of our central spine (Emi, Mings, McGinn and Watkins) is pretty inconsistent.  Emi would be a shout - but as others have said I am not sure that a keeper is the best choice for captain.  Carlos would probably be a shout but probably needed to have been here for at least a season to take on the role.  I think Kamara has enough on his plate.  Luiz is too quiet.  So from the rest of the spine there are no obvious options.  Couts would just have convinced certain posters here that Gerrard was just appointing his mates.  Which leaves Cash - who I just think is a little erratic / over enthusiastic.  Digne has the experience but is still relatively new to the squad.  Which kind of leaves me thinking that the only other option really is Danny Ings.  And actually I am thinking that isn't a bad shout.  Question marks about how many minutes he will play (depending on which system we use) but he seems to tick more boxes the more I think about it.

[Peter Griffin]

12 minutes ago, sne said:

Bit of a pointless question since Gerrard choose McGinn. Obviously he wants McGinn and not someone else. All suggestions will be met with "Gerrard doesn't wan't (insert name) as captain.

Not from me. I have still to see any recommendations as to an alternative to McGinn. We just don't have many captain material players which is why nobody will suggest a captain other than McGinn and just moan about him as captain

[sne]

Just now, Peter Griffin said:

Not from me. I have still to see any recommendations as to an alternative to McGinn. We just don't have many captain material players which is why nobody will suggest a captain other than McGinn and just moan about him as captain

Most seem to want Mings or Martinez if you look at the poll in the other thread. Some said Carlos since he was an option.

4 people wanted McGinn, think it's 5 now.

[Vancvillan]

3 hours ago, TheMelvillan said:

It's nearly as if those who work with these guys every day and see more than we do have a better insight into what's best for the club than us

The problem with this line of thinking is that it can be used to justify any decision by the manager, even if the outcome is less than successful.

Would you apply the same logic to the decision to not drop Coutinho in favour of Buendia during the latter handful of games last season?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Vancvillan
Spelling

[Rustibrooks]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but we finished higher up and with a better points total with McGinn in the side before last season, do you guys not think McGinn is capable of leading us further up at all? 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Rustibrooks

[allani]

17 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

Not from me. I have still to see any recommendations as to an alternative to McGinn. We just don't have many captain material players which is why nobody will suggest a captain other than McGinn and just moan about him as captain

To be honest this (lack of captain material players) is part of the reason why I think we need to sign another CM.  We need someone to lead the midfield and make sure that everyone is doing their job.  Unfortunately one of the players that needs shouting at (to chase back and not just let his man go past him) the most is McGinn.  I'd be much happier with him playing in a slightly more advanced role in a midfield role with a licence to roam / harry the opposition in their own half - which kind of distances him a little from the other two CMs.  I don't want him dropping back too deep to try and direct / dictate play.  Those aren't his strengths.  But we really don't have many captains in the team - probably part of the reason why we are so inconsistent and struggle when we are put under pressure.  Just don't have enough players trying to take control of the situation and "lead" their team mates.

Edited July 27, 2022 by allani

[allani]

5 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but we finished higher up and with a better points total with McGinn in the side, do you guys not think McGinn is capable of leading us further up at all? 

McGinn played 35 out of 38 matches last season and for 3093 minutes (which is basically 34.367 matches - so of the 35 matches in which he featured he was only not on the pitch for 57 minutes).  So not sure that really provides enough evidence to support any theory about whether we were better or worse with him in / out of the team.

[Tom13]

2 hours ago, Joshie2000 said:

Who 

Douglas and Ramsey should be the starters in the 8 positions. Sanson looks a more technically capable player than McGinn as well.

[Rustibrooks]

6 minutes ago, allani said:

McGinn played 35 out of 38 matches last season and for 3093 minutes (which is basically 34.367 matches - so of the 35 matches in which he featured he was only not on the pitch for 57 minutes).  So not sure that really provides enough evidence to support any theory about whether we were better or worse with him in / out of the team.

I meant from the season before last sorry 

[VillaHatesMe]

[villan501]

Mcginn becoming captain dosnt change one bit that he is incapable of passing and ball retention something we as a side need.

Mcginn could end up taking the armband and villa winning games, this however will have no impact on him getting the basics right, I like most expect 3 things from mcginn.

 

1. Terrible ball retention

2. Terrible passing plenty of overhit pointless long balls giving opponents the chance to put our defence under pressure.

3.Guaranteed starter no matter how bad he plays.

 

Mcginn has been a superb player for us in the past but I cannot see him improving or moving us forward.

[KentVillan]

Apart from the individual player who wears it, does it matter much who wears the armband? I know it can be a powerful motivation for a player to feel like they’re the main man at a club, but I’m not convinced it matters all that much who is formally the captain. Some players are natural leaders and will dominate the dressing room regardless of whether they’re captain. It’s not like cricket where the captain actually makes decisions.

[allani]

Just now, Rustibrooks said:

I meant from the season before last sorry 

Ah OK.  I think the season before is a tough one to base any conclusions on.  We were brilliant for the first 12 matches and then pretty awful for the last 26.  Probably more linked to whether Jack was playing or not rather than any other player.  In that respect I would say that McGinn was just as bad as everyone else.  He played well when Jack played well and didn't do enough when Jack either wasn't playing, wasn't playing well or was having the **** kicked out of him and unable to influence the play as much as usual.  Part of my problem with McGinn is that when we are under the cosh he (like most of our midfield) tends to disappear or he gets the ball and then gives it away too quickly because he is trying to do too much, too quickly.  One exception would be the match against Spurs where he really went after their left back and forced a couple of major issues that helped turn the game.  That is what we need him to be doing more of - but that relies on him being more of a maverick than the captain trying to control the team.

[villan501]

1 minute ago, KentVillan said:

Apart from the individual player who wears it, does it matter much who wears the armband? I know it can be a powerful motivation for a player to feel like they’re the main man at a club, but I’m not convinced it matters all that much who is formally the captain. Some players are natural leaders and will dominate the dressing room regardless of whether they’re captain. It’s not like cricket where the captain actually makes decisions.

The captain is the first name on team sheet normally, sends a very bad signal to give mcginn the skippers armband if he intends to leave him out this suggests mcginn will  be a regular on teamsheet.

 

If villa are to move forward and progress mcginn needs to be left out because he isn't as good as the other players in midfield.

[allani]

2 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Apart from the individual player who wears it, does it matter much who wears the armband? I know it can be a powerful motivation for a player to feel like they’re the main man at a club, but I’m not convinced it matters all that much who is formally the captain. Some players are natural leaders and will dominate the dressing room regardless of whether they’re captain. It’s not like cricket where the captain actually makes decisions.

I think my worry is that we really don't have many leaders.  Emi is pretty decent at trying to keep the defence on their toes.  I hope that Carlos becomes the leader of our Back 4.  I think we lack leadership in midfield.  And for whatever reason Watkins and Ings seem to operate more as two individual players more than a partnership.  If we had proper leaders in all three areas of the pitch then the captaincy becomes somewhat irrelevant.  But when we lack leadership in at least 2 of the 3 areas then the captain becomes more important.