Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

Wait, so were they 'kidnapped' ? 

Are Hamas a liberal democratic ally of the UK?

[Awol]

Worth noting.

 

[magnkarl]

44 minutes ago, Jareth said:

What do you classify as a child?

Also see follow up tweet 

 

I guess in a legal term, a child is someone under the criminal responsibility age. In our country that is 10. Many people consider them children until they're 18. I guess that's why he's saying children, rather than adolescents as it plays to his audience.

You put an awful lot of strength into 'under arrest', when in reality that is just a term you call people who haven't had a trial yet. When a country has been invaded by something like 10.000 marauding terrorists it's not exactly hard to understand that they wouldn't have had their trials yet.

By this tweets standards we have around 500-1000 children in custody in the U.K.

Edited November 24, 2023 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

 

There have been several demonstrations in Birmingham over the past few years protesting against Britain's role in the Yemeni civil war, and also several in support of various Kurdish causes. It's weird how some people of a more pro-Israeli persuasion seem to overlook this and try to act as though those on pro-Palestinian marches ignore/aren't bothered by other similar injustices elsewhere. It's an entirely false representation and about as helpful to the overall debate as circular arguments about the rights and wrongs surrounding the establishment of Israel in the 1940s.

Of course, the core difference between Israel/Palestine and the ongoing situations in Yemen or Northern Syria is that Israel paints itself as a Liberal democracy. As such, it can expect to be held to a much higher standard by the international community (particularly those in Western Liberal democracies) when it commits mass atrocities 

I don't necessarily disagree, and I argue your points to my friends in Israel too. I guess their followup question would be how many people attended said marches, compared to those who are going on now for Palestine. I think you understand what they're trying to say, and it's not entirely untrue.

Palestine is popular, Yemen isn't. Even though in pretty much every metric except for on an individual level, Palestine's horrors don't come close to that of the people of Yemen. In my humble opinion that is because the Houthis are in control in Yemen, so Iran doesn't need to get it's rabble rousers in the UK (GG, CW, No2NATO, Daley et. all) to talk about what the Houthis/SA have done in Yemen.

Edited November 24, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

15 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You put an awful lot of strength into 'under arrest', when in reality that is just a term you call people who haven't had a trial yet. When a country has been invaded by something like 10.000 marauding terrorists it's not exactly hard to understand that they wouldn't have had their trials yet.

From an Israeli human rights group. 

Administrative detention is incarceration without trial or charge, alleging that a person plans to commit a future offense. It has no time limit, and the evidence on which it is based is not disclosed. Israel employs this measure extensively and routinely, and has used it to hold thousands of Palestinians for lengthy periods of time. While detention orders are formally reviewed, this is merely a semblance of judicial oversight, as detainees cannot reasonably mount a defense against undisclosed allegations.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/administrative_detention

[Davkaus]

23 hours ago, Mic09 said:

This is incredible, I can't believe I only found out about this. 

So, during the Shabbat, practicing Jews should not carry things outside of their homes that might be forbidden. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's all to do with private property/public domain.

This is obviously next to impossible in the modern world.

So, many cities, and you will find a list here from wiki, have set a boundry to allow everything basically becoming 'one area' making the restriction easier to get past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin 

Apparently, Manhattan has a literal string around it, just to make it 'one area' and make sure Jews are not breaking religious laws. 

I have heard about elevators stopping on each floor as to not press a button during the Shabbat, but this is next level. Apparently it costs $100,000 a year to maintain the line in Manhattan, and you even have links to see if the line is in good condition:

https://www.eruv.co.uk/

Incredible stuff. 
 

This to me seems to be taking the piss to the extent I'd question why they bother to pretend they're obeying such a daft rule at all.

[Jareth]

21 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

By this tweets standards we have around 500-1000 children in custody in the U.K.

Israel is the only country that systematically prosecutes minors in military courts, which often accept confessions obtained by coercion.

An estimated 500-700 children, some as young as 12, are tried in military courts every year, the most common charge being stone-throwing, which carries a 20-year prison sentence.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-children-detained-explained#:~:text=According to Israel Prison Service,arbitrarily detained in military facilities.

[icouldtelltheworld]

10 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I don't necessarily disagree, and I argue your points to my friends in Israel too. I guess their followup question would be how many people attended said marches, compared to those who are going on now for Palestine. I think you understand what they're trying to say, and it's not entirely untrue.

Palestine is popular, Yemen isn't. Even though in pretty much every metric except for on an individual level, Palestine's horrors don't come close to that of the people of Yemen. In my humble opinion that is because the Houthis are in control in Yemen, so Iran doesn't need to get it's rabble rousers in the UK (GG, CW, No2NATO, Daley et. all) to talk about what the Houthis/SA have done in Yemen.

I don't deny that there's a certain 'popularity' to the Israel/Palestine issue that other causes don't receive, but from my own first hand experience of attending other demonstrations, I know that many of those involved in the planning/organisation of protests with regards Yemen and the Kurds are also active in Palestine solidarity campaigns. Unfortunately, the 'meme quality' of the issue will only be exacerbated due to its adoption by actors across both sides of the culture war.

However, there are other factors at play. Everyone knows that we turn a blind eye to the actions of the Saudis as it suits the interests of the British state. That a highly autocratic regime perpertrates devastation is of no surprise to anyone, but as Israel insists it is a Liberal democracy (and is treated as such by its Western allies), then it is always going to come under closer scrutiny. If Israel wants to be in the club then it can have no complaints about being judged in accordance with the rules of the game.

Beyond that though, Israel/Palestine has a much longer pedigree as a prominent issue with British politics. I'm in my early 30s and can remember it being frequently on the news from my childhood onwards, but it has obviously been a source of debate and tension for many decades before that.

Then you have the settler-colonial aspects. None of the other conflicts you have mentioned have the removal of native people from their lands in order that they can be settled by (often) people European countries/the USA. It makes the issue somewhat of an outlier amongst modern conflicts (I know that you have lamented the influence of the settler movement on Israeli politics so I am not meaning to attack you personally here or insinuate anything about your own beliefs).

And I don't deny also that for many people, the conflict does provide a useful cover for antisemitism. However, there a range of factors which combine to shed more light on Israel/Palestine within the Western conscious than issues in Yemen, Kurdistan and other such similar places

[magnkarl]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

From an Israeli human rights group. 

Administrative detention is incarceration without trial or charge, alleging that a person plans to commit a future offense. It has no time limit, and the evidence on which it is based is not disclosed. Israel employs this measure extensively and routinely, and has used it to hold thousands of Palestinians for lengthy periods of time. While detention orders are formally reviewed, this is merely a semblance of judicial oversight, as detainees cannot reasonably mount a defense against undisclosed allegations.

https://www.btselem.org/topic/administrative_detention

Do you honestly think Hamas cares about these kids when it comes to swapping them for Israeli and Western captives? 

Hamas will want to trade for their fighters, not kids who throw rocks at soldiers.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

Do you honestly think Hamas cares about these kids when it comes to swapping them for Israeli and Western captives? 

Hamas will want to trade for their fighters, not kids who throw rocks at soldiers.

I wasn't talking about what Hamas thinks - they are terrorists, that's obvious. My point is about our liberal democratic ally - Israel, measured by their rules of arrest and detention, and by their prosecuting of minors in military courts, giving out 20 year sentences for throwing rocks - it appears they fall well short of being liberal. A dull view of that is based on the evidence. I'm hoping the democratic bit kicks in at the next election. 

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

I don't deny that there's a certain 'popularity' to the Israel/Palestine issue that other causes don't receive, but from my own first hand experience of attending other demonstrations, I know that many of those involved in the planning/organisation of protests with regards Yemen and the Kurds are also active in Palestine solidarity campaigns. Unfortunately, the 'meme quality' of the issue will only be exacerbated due to its adoption by actors across both sides of the culture war.

However, there are other factors at play. Everyone knows that we turn a blind eye to the actions of the Saudis as it suits the interests of the British state. That a highly autocratic regime perpertrates devastation is of no surprise to anyone, but as Israel insists it is a Liberal democracy (and is treated as such by its Western allies), then it is always going to come under closer scrutiny. If Israel wants to be in the club then it can have no complaints about being judged in accordance with the rules of the game.

Beyond that though, Israel/Palestine has a much longer pedigree as a prominent issue with British politics. I'm in my early 30s and can remember it being frequently on the news from my childhood onwards, but it has obviously been a source of debate and tension for many decades before that.

Then you have the settler-colonial aspects. None of the other conflicts you have mentioned have the removal of native people from their lands in order that they can be settled by (often) people European countries/the USA. It makes the issue somewhat of an outlier amongst modern conflicts (I know that you have lamented the influence of the settler movement on Israeli politics so I am not meaning to attack you personally here or insinuate anything about your own beliefs).

And I don't deny also that for many people, the conflict does provide a useful cover for antisemitism. However, there a range of factors which combine to shed more light on Israel/Palestine within the Western conscious than issues in Yemen, Kurdistan and other such similar places

Then we are back at this argument. Do you feel like 'we' follow those rules ourselves? Israel doesn't.

It seems to my friends that we're okay with carpet bombing Falluja, Tripoli, Kabul, Mogadishu, Mosul, Raqqa+++ to get at terrorists with plenty of civilian casualties, while when Israel does it everyone in the West likes to point at breaches of whichever rules 'the club' appears to be having.

[icouldtelltheworld]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Do you honestly think Hamas cares about these kids when it comes to swapping them for Israeli and Western captives? 

Hamas will want to trade for their fighters, not kids who throw rocks at soldiers.

Everyone knows Hamas are evil. The question is really whether Israel, as a supposed Liberal democracy, should be engaged in the arbitrary and wholly disproportionate detention of Palestinian minors for minor acts of resistance

[icouldtelltheworld]

Just now, magnkarl said:

Then we are back at this argument. Do you feel like 'we' follow those rules ourselves? Israel doesn't.

It seems to my friends that we're okay with carpet bombing Falluja, Tripoli, Kabul, Mogadishu, Mosul, Raqqa+++ to get at terrorists with plenty of civilian casualties, while when Israel does it everyone in the West likes to point at breaches of whichever rules 'the club' appears to be having.

I'm no fan of British foreign policy, hence attending protests regarding issues like Yemen. It doesn't follow that I believe there is really any equivalence or mitigating factors to be drawn from that regarding Israels treatment of the Palestinians

[magnkarl]

7 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

I'm no fan of British foreign policy, hence attending protests regarding issues like Yemen. It doesn't follow that I believe there is really any equivalence or mitigating factors to be drawn from that regarding Israels treatment of the Palestinians

Saying that we're no fans (I'm not either by the way), has done nothing. As a Western alliance we like to preach about values of different kinds, but when push comes to shove we're more than happy to do pretty much the same as Israel, even going so far as to fund other nations in their wiping out of millions of people (SA). What the average Israeli sees here is someone with a whole lot of 'holier than thou' until we're attacked ourselves, just that we're miles removed from fundamentalist Islamic nations, while Israel is regularly attacked by pretty much their whole neighbourhood, often based on their race or religion like the last 2000 years.

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by magnkarl

[Mic09]

17 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

This to me seems to be taking the piss to the extent I'd question why they bother to pretend they're obeying such a daft rule at all.

It is an ancient religion that has transformed over time (like any other religion). 

Sometimes I look at certain religious practices and think, well, that is just taking the piss. But then I remember I get my kid some candles to blow on a cake once a year or wear a Villa item of clothing during match days.

If martians attacked us tomorrow and looked at Shabbat laws and the birthday candle blowing, would they see much difference? We are all involved in some ''pointless'' practices.

I was just amazed by the ingenuity of it! 

But from a religious standpoint, I do sometimes wonder whether some Rabbi sits there and thinks 'Well, God, you think you are so smart - here is another trick to bypass what you wrote in the scripture! A bit of string around the neighbourhood and the joke is on you.'

[icouldtelltheworld]

Just now, magnkarl said:

Saying that we're no fans (I'm not either by the way), has done nothing. As a Western alliance we like to preach about values of different kinds, but when push comes to shove we're more than happy to do pretty much the same as Israel, even going so far as to fund other nations in their wiping out of millions of people (SA). What the average Israeli sees here is someone with a whole lot of 'holier than thou' until we're attacked ourselves, just that we're miles removed from fundamentalist Islamic nations, while Israel is regularly attacked by pretty much their whole neighbourhood, often based on their race or religion.

 

And what we see is the systematic imprisonment of children, the continued erosion and removal of Palestinian lands to make room for ever more settlers and a culture in which clearly at least some elements of the Israeli political elite would happily oversee the complete destruction of Gaza.

The average Israeli may see things that way, fair enough. For the rest of the world, it is not just about the current bombardment of Gaza but about a range of issues that have bubbled away for many decades now.

Whataboutery regarding NATO bombing of Middle Eastern countries or the atrocities wreaked by the Assad regime really don't do anything to contextualise or improve perceptions of Israel by outside observers. In fact, they do the total opposite.

Anyway, I've tried my utmost to show respect for your positions and be mindful that your perspective differs from my own, whilst offering my own view on some of the nuances of the debate. You unfortunately seem to only want to address singular points within my posts and introduce the same circular arguments and strawmen. We aren't going to solve the crisis by arguing on a football forum, so I'll bow out now and we'll agree to disagree.

I'm sure that we both want most of all is a peaceful solution and stability in the region, here's hoping some progress can be made towards that, no matter how unlikely it may seem currently 

[magnkarl]

51 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

And what we see is the systematic imprisonment of children, the continued erosion and removal of Palestinian lands to make room for ever more settlers and a culture in which clearly at least some elements of the Israeli political elite would happily oversee the complete destruction of Gaza.

The average Israeli may see things that way, fair enough. For the rest of the world, it is not just about the current bombardment of Gaza but about a range of issues that have bubbled away for many decades now.

Whataboutery regarding NATO bombing of Middle Eastern countries or the atrocities wreaked by the Assad regime really don't do anything to contextualise or improve perceptions of Israel by outside observers. In fact, they do the total opposite.

Anyway, I've tried my utmost to show respect for your positions and be mindful that your perspective differs from my own, whilst offering my own view on some of the nuances of the debate. You unfortunately seem to only want to address singular points within my posts and introduce the same circular arguments and strawmen. We aren't going to solve the crisis by arguing on a football forum, so I'll bow out now and we'll agree to disagree.

I'm sure that we both want most of all is a peaceful solution and stability in the region, here's hoping some progress can be made towards that, no matter how unlikely it may seem currently 

I don't think we disagree on anything. I'm as much anti Israel's clear breaches of humanitarian law as you are. I'm just trying to tell a very insular crowd in the West what it actually feels like for the few Israelis I know, and that there needs to be middle ground in these things and understanding. Just like October 7th didn't happen in a vacuum, the rest of the relations in the middle East didn't happen in a vacuum. One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that US 'support' (see military credit), makes a lot of people in Israel pro-war. The same can be said about several of the groups within the Palestinian diaspora who want a status quo as they're earning big bucks on what is going on with Palestine (see Hamas, parts of PA's almost oligarchic tendencies). The best thing would be if moderate voices were allowed to the fore in both populations but I don't see that happening as Iran can essentially just prod either Hezbollah, PIJ or Hamas into attacking Israel and then Israel becomes more right wing, more occupation-oriented and more fearful. 

We've had our bouts with the same Islamic terrorism that Israel are continuously facing, and I don't think it's whataboutery for Israel to remind its partners of our response to said terror, it is after all at least a very big part of the current escalation in the conflict. Apart from the initial suffering in Israel from the terror and the obvious rise in racism relating to Jews not in Israel it is the Palestinian people who are paying for Iran's fundamentalism. It's not right or just, I just have yet to see how the rest of the democratic world would solve it differently considering our history with the same kind of conflict. There's absolutely no precedent set for special forces operations or surgical strikes with this sort of terrorism, at least to my knowledge - so I just don't see how it is feasible. It is another thing that we seem to think that Israel should've solved in a way we couldn't have and haven't ourselves.

Edited November 24, 2023 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

I’m not interested in Israeli whataboutism that they are treated differently to other apartheid and murderous nations.

Unless they expect some linear course of action where the world deals with North Korea first, then Myanmar, then Israel about fifth?

It’s just argument for argument sake, as a nation they carry out mass punishment of civilians, mass murder, and they facilitate the theft of homes, land and businesses based on the race and religion of the criminals.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by chrisp65

[Jareth]

Fair play Barcelona. The argument has been made that nothing comes from politicians taking a stance, that it's pointless. Well it isn't.

 

[OutByEaster?]

4 hours ago, magnkarl said:

 When a country has been invaded by something like 10.000 marauding terrorists it's not exactly hard to understand that they wouldn't have had their trials yet.

This has stopped me in my tracks - is 10,000 a number from October 7th? 

I have a sort of rough figure in my head, with absolutely no idea how it got there, on the number of terrorists that crossed the border on October 7th via their various means and in my head, I'd always imagined this to be a group of around a hundred, maybe two hundred at most. surely there weren't anything like 10,000 on that date?

I kinda imagined a number had been killed and maybe a few captured, but nothing that would otherwise hinder the criminal justice system.

That number certainly has my attention - where is it from?