ender4 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 15 minutes ago, Jareth said: They listened! Why did the Israeli's build the tunnels and bunkers in Gaza? If they built them, don't they have a map/blueprints of them including where the entrances are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2023 29 minutes ago, ender4 said: Why did the Israeli's build the tunnels and bunkers in Gaza? They controlled Gaza at the time. The "we helped them build the tunnels" is a bit disingenuous, they built them for themselves not the Palestinians There's a link I posted days ago to an Israeli website called The Tablet where it's discussed but I can't be arsed searching for it again because you have to rule out all the current dates, I think it was published in 2014 but references comments about it dating back to possibly 2008 and claims the tunnels were built in the 1990s. If my memory serves me correctly, the tunnels were built as Israel's command centre at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 55 minutes ago, omariqy said: Hi mate, I enjoy all the political threads on VT because they are generally balanced and even though people disagree everyone has a great debate. It's a great place to discuss the latest news and the story behind it. But in the last few days it feels like this thread has just turned into you spamming links from random pro-palestinian Twitterers (X'ers?). Have you gone down one of those fabled rabbit-holes where the algorithms just now show you more and more of the same? Not to say that what you're posting might not be the truth and useful for debating, but i have a feeling that a lot of VT'ers aren't even clicking on any links you are posting partly because of the volume of them, but also from the Twitter 'names' of most of them, you get the feeling they aren't going to be balanced viewpoints. Please feel free to disagree with my post though. I'm not having a go at you, simply trying to point out that you may be doing your own posts a disservice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, ender4 said: Hi mate, I enjoy all the political threads on VT because they are generally balanced and even though people disagree everyone has a great debate. It's a great place to discuss the latest news and the story behind it. But in the last few days it feels like this thread has just turned into you spamming links from random pro-palestinian Twitterers (X'ers?). Have you gone down one of those fabled rabbit-holes where the algorithms just now show you more and more of the same? Not to say that what you're posting might not be the truth and useful for debating, but i have a feeling that a lot of VT'ers aren't even clicking on any links you are posting partly because of the volume of them, but also from the Twitter 'names' of most of them, you get the feeling they aren't going to be balanced viewpoints. Please feel free to disagree with my post though. I'm not having a go at you, simply trying to point out that you may be doing your own posts a disservice. No I completely get that but I’m just bored of seeing dead children on my phone screen every day and feel a need to vent. Children who look like my kids and so it hits home more for me. I’m also bored of seeing Israel’s war crimes diminished to it being part and parcel of war. Plus this is the first real war or conflict where there are boots on the ground where you can see the horrors of what’s going on. Half of my posts are the impact this is having on the ordinary person. It’s easy for us to ignore it and get on with our lives but I feel it’s a disservice if we don’t share it or listen to their stories. Israel is a propaganda machine so I feel it’s only right I share the other side as it were. It’s also hard to find a balanced voice in this because when side is being oppressed and the other side is the oppressor I don’t see how you can take a neutral stance as it were. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, omariqy said: Plus this is the first real war or conflict where there are boots on the ground where you can see the horrors of what’s going on. It really isn't 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 12 minutes ago, bickster said: It really isn't I mean in terms of social media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Syria was also one but no one was that interested in that unfortunately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 minute ago, omariqy said: I mean in terms of social media It really isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, bickster said: It really isn't Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 16 minutes ago, omariqy said: Israel is a propaganda machine so I feel it’s only right I share the other side as it were. It’s also hard to find a balanced voice in this because when side is being oppressed and the other side is the oppressor I don’t see how you can take a neutral stance as it were. I've not seen many people posting Israeli propaganda on this thread that you need to balance out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 21, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, omariqy said: Ok Its the first one you're interested in enough to notice. I can show you very similar footage from Ukraine for starters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 21, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted November 21, 2023 I think the important thing about what is being posted is the nitty gritty of whether cameras have been in combat zones before. Certainly more important than tedious reiterations of children being bombed in a city by a modern industrialised nation. We don't need to think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, omariqy said: No I completely get that but I’m just bored of seeing dead children on my phone screen every day and feel a need to vent. Children who look like my kids and so it hits home more for me. I’m also bored of seeing Israel’s war crimes diminished to it being part and parcel of war. Plus this is the first real war or conflict where there are boots on the ground where you can see the horrors of what’s going on. Half of my posts are the impact this is having on the ordinary person. It’s easy for us to ignore it and get on with our lives but I feel it’s a disservice if we don’t share it or listen to their stories. Israel is a propaganda machine so I feel it’s only right I share the other side as it were. It’s also hard to find a balanced voice in this because when side is being oppressed and the other side is the oppressor I don’t see how you can take a neutral stance as it were. If you're bored of seeing dead children on your phone, I'd suggest deleting your X(crement) account to stop letting the algorithms bring you to a place where you're often posting things that are different shades of true, fake news or 'hot takes' by people who are in either camp. Twitter is just a soup of the outer most ends of the spectrum of everything, sprinkled in with some honest accounts every now and then, with a moderator team that's been slashed to bits so its alt-right owner can keep on posting and cozying up to his conspiracy theory loving fan-base. There are plenty of places to read about this conflict, to get the nitty gritty, without having to get worked up about things that are often unverified and published by either side's propaganda team. You seem to think that Hamas and the pro-Palestinian side doesn't utilise an effective media campaign in your post, I'd suggest you being picked up on half-truths and posting fake news/disinformation is an example of just that. Edited November 21, 2023 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, omariqy said: No I completely get that but I’m just bored of seeing dead children on my phone screen every day and feel a need to vent. Children who look like my kids and so it hits home more for me. I’m also bored of seeing Israel’s war crimes diminished to it being part and parcel of war. Plus this is the first real war or conflict where there are boots on the ground where you can see the horrors of what’s going on. Half of my posts are the impact this is having on the ordinary person. It’s easy for us to ignore it and get on with our lives but I feel it’s a disservice if we don’t share it or listen to their stories. Israel is a propaganda machine so I feel it’s only right I share the other side as it were. It’s also hard to find a balanced voice in this because when side is being oppressed and the other side is the oppressor I don’t see how you can take a neutral stance as it were. I guess that's fair enough. I think because i'm in my comfortable house in the UK, this war (and lots of others) is just something that is happening 'far away'. It doesn't directly impact my life, so i'm pretty dispassionate about any war abroad and therefore it's something of interest to hear about it from all angles. Edited November 21, 2023 by ender4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 I almost squint on purpose now when using Twitter just so I can not see things - I often catch the outline and my brain can fill in the rest, doesn't happen often as I tend not to follow accounts that post it. It is regrettable that so much material exists, but exist it does, because there are so many civilians being attacked. Israel was quick to cotton on to the power of graphic imagery and arranged for every journo to watch unedited footage of Oct 7th, quite early on in the battle for hearts and minds - they realised the persuasive power the imagery held. But if graphic imagery is achieving sympathy for the civillians of Gaza, well, it will, there's tons of it, every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 It’ll be interesting to see what new plan, if any, emerges from this mess. Whether Israel is mature enough to talk or whether they would view that as reward for the attack on October 7th. The basic issues are still unresolved, there is no Palestine and that suits lots of their neighbours. There has to be some action either voluntary or brought about by international pressure whereby the illegal settlements encouraged by Israel are reversed. But how do they do that now? They’ve baked in the root cause of the conflict, stolen land, stolen homes, stolen futures. To give the Palestinians anything approaching a fair chance they now have to extract thousands of armed militant settlers that believe they have a natural right to be on land, land that still has the tell tale signs of other recent residents. It’s an absolute buggers muddle and if internationally we don’t address that, then we are doomed to repeat this time and time again. Genuine talks with a genuine will on both sides to reach a long lasting equitable settlement that results in a full Palestinian state. It’s going to take a while, meanwhile a generation has just experienced a biblical event and need their world rebuilt. Literally millions of them. If there are no talks, do countries have to start considering sanctions against an apartheid state and whether that just entrenches attitudes again? If talks progress and there is a terror attempt to scupper them, would there be international action against anyone facilitating that terror? Needs a plan. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 I think I may take a break from this thread, in order to not de-rail. I appreciate I’ve posted a lot on here these last few days. As I said, it means a lot to me and I’ve posted on this thread since its inception. I don’t go on X really but only for here so I can post the links as they don’t embed from the likes of Instagram. I normally see an article or new story on Insta and then try to find the same video shared on stories on Insta on X. This means I have to copy a link from someone else on X who has embedded the post and then commented on it. Doesn’t mean I agree with their commentary but just showing the content. However, before I go and in part to defend myself a little, I think the majority of what I have posted has been people quoting or linking to other articles/videos from mainstream media or first hand accounts of what’s happened post a bombing or attack. There’s been a few rogue accounts but the likes of Tablet or Visegrad 24 fall in the Israeli biased media, especially the latter which has been proven to get things wrong all the time. Here’s a list of what I have shared in terms of links. It shows that, apart from the fact that I have spent too much time on here(!), most are reputable news sources or people quoting reputable sources, or first hand accounts on the ground. 48 pieces of information shared (too much I know). However, I would say 2/3 are rogue accounts, The rest are yes pro Palestine for the main but they are just amplifying mainstream media news stories/interviews. Apart from that it’s first hand accounts. So with that I am out and I hope you guys continue to have a good discussion and debate. Al Quds Network - missile in Hebrew - completely wrong and I acknowledged it A story from the Guardian about Bibi rejected a deal on hostage exchange An interview on Piers Morgan with a Palestinian peace activist who has lost his entire family but continues to want a one state peace led solution A Low-key podcast which explains why the far right support Israel in response to a question. I caveated this re Muhammad Hijab but Lowkeys research into the links is verified and excellent A post from Dr Miryam Francois of a text she received from a doctor in Gaza A Palestinian civilian at Al Shifa hospital - this was then backed up by a post by Chindie from Doctors Without Borders A compilation of Israeli high ranking official interviews An interview from New Yorker with the settler leader and her influence on the Israeli government Another post from the same Palestinian civilian with a thread of videos after a refugee camp was bombed A Haaretz news article with details of who was killed (been identified so far) from the terrorist attack A post from someone quoting the article but as correctly pointed out he didn’t have a good history of not distorting it for his agenda and I acknowledged that A radio interview from Yasmin Porat - one of the survivors of 7/10 A Israeli actress pretending to be a Palestinian doctor at the hospital A Dr at Jabaila Refugee camp with videos of the massacre committed there Al Akhbar journalist with a video of their convoy being targeted by Israeli army A story on the Palestinian taxi driver shot in the head by the army in West Bank A video of the Israeli spokesperson thinking a calendar was a list of Hamas operatives Some articles from France 24 re the tunnels Some stats from Evan Hill on the rate of children being killed in comparison to other conflicts An article from Human Rights Watch about Israel killing a family in a car including three girls under 14 and lying that it contained suspicious terrorists A Hilary Clinton tweet about Russia bombing hospitals An Al Jazeera interview An interview with UN Special Rapporteur for Palestine A video of Israeli Singer Lior Narkis singing for soldiers and calling Gazans the N word A text exchange from the British doctor Abu Ghassan at Al Ahli hospital A investigation from Human Rights Monitor A BBC correspondent report A Sky News story Various videos of the devastation caused including parents dealing with losing their children Mark Regev on Mehdi Hasan saying he doesn’t accept children were killed by Israel A video of an Israeli soldier throwing a grenade into a mosque whilst people are praying Footage from CNN of Israel firing at a father and son waving white flags An article on the two UN schools that were bombed Then the video of it The article from Haaretz that an Israeli helicopter killed some of the revellers another Sky News report A Parody of the Israeli spokesperson The Hamas propganda video A thread showing how Israel have lied about previous indiscretions at first and then admitted it Some stats on the ethnic cleansing from 1946 to 1948 An interview with Chris Hedges former Middle East correspondent for New York Times A response to someone posting that Hamas shot someone when they were going south from the man who recorded it confirming it was Israel Interview with Eylon Levy saying he holds WHO complicit An article from Israeli general Giora Eiland The interview with Yair Lapid saying the majority of those killed are Hamas even tho the majority are children Interview with Raz Segal professor of Genocide Studies at Stockton university A video of Moroccan goalkeeper FaceTiming a Gazan child An interview with Matt Kennard of Declassified UK 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, omariqy said: Syria was also one but no one was that interested in that unfortunately! Just a question on this, why do you think that is? Why do you think no one really cares about Yemen, Iran, Syria, Iraq (after America withdrew) etc, but when it's Palestine\Israel we've got marches we haven't seen since we claimed to have found WMD's in Iraq and illegally invaded them? It seems to be that the world essentially doesn't care that an estimated 100.000 Palestinians died in Syria's civil war, but when the war is in Palestine everyone suddenly cares. When ISIS went into mount Sinjar and essentially ethnically cleansed a whole ethno-religious group, no one protested in the streets, or posted tweet after tweet online. Edited November 22, 2023 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted November 22, 2023 Share Posted November 22, 2023 29 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Just a question on this, why do you think that is? Why do you think no one really cares about Yemen, Iran, Syria, Iraq (after America withdrew) etc, but when it's Palestine\Israel we've got marches we haven't seen since we claimed to have found WMD's in Iraq and illegally invaded them? It seems to be that the world essentially doesn't care that an estimated 100.000 Palestinians died in Syria's civil war, but when the war is in Palestine everyone suddenly cares. When ISIS went into mount Sinjar and essentially ethnically cleansed a whole ethno-religious group, no one protested in the streets, or posted tweet after tweet online. Do you really not understand this? Israel are being backed by the West, therefore marching and protests in western countries could potentially influence the governments of these countries. The actions of ISIS and Assad cannot be influenced by any protesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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